What do you think of this idea of a wealth tax?

[LuluJakey1]

This is from The Guardian this afternoon. It is the third article I have seen in the Press two days promoting this idea.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/06/arts-wealth-tax-rishi-sunak-nhs-public-services?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Personally, I think it is bonkers. She seems to be suggesting that ALL wealth in this country - houses, savings, pensions, shares/paintings etc should be subjected to a one off tax of 10% to get us out of the financial mess.

DH and I would have to find about £80,000 cash! We'd have to sell the house?

Yes- Yes it is a good idea and you are BU to criticise it.
No- It is an awful idea and you are right to criticise it.

@PigletJohn

"why bother saving"

Because having plenty of money, or a big house, and paying some tax on it, is better than the alternative.

I wouldn't know, I don't have plenty of money or a big house. I have a maisonette, a small pension pot that won't pay out for a while yet and no savings so I'll be extremely pissed off if I'm expected to get into debt to pay tax on any of it!

"I'll be extremely pissed off"

if you are a person of modest means who already pays Council Tax (a sort of distorted property Tax) on your home; and Income Tax and NI on your earnings, it seems improbable that you will be called upon to do more. Not only are you already paying, but the effort of assessing your wealth and collecting tax on it seems hardly worth the effort. And you might stop voting Tory.

It is more likely that people with large amounts of untaxed wealth will be required to chip in, or possibly tax-dodgers and multinationals who squirrel away their earnings offshore. There are not many votes in tax-dodging billionaires, but there is a lot of money.

The difference in personal wealth between the top 10% and the median citizen is quite striking.

IMO the idea of a wealth tax based on your net worth is as ridiculous as the idea that there would be a 10% tax rate.

There are not many votes in tax-dodging billionaires, but there is a lot of money.

Yes, and a lot of that money is donated to the Tory party.

The problem is there are not a lot of very rich people and those that are can easily work or move to areas with lower taxes. That is why Hammond tried to increase national insurance on "white van man" as there ARE a lot of people on middle incomes so it does increase the tax take. Lots of people have a house and no savings and indeed no pension which is basically my position and many of those people would have to move to pay an annual tax on their house which of course is difficult but might free up houses for richer younger people to buy. The older ones could live with their children or buy a studio flat or a mobile home and the younger ones would rent instead of buying a house I suppose because of the fact the state had moved to a we steal your capital assets and punish those who saved into a house to live to house those whom they love rather than those who spent the money on alcohol and drugs.

Not a lot of rich people, but they have much more wealth than all the poor people added together.

If the chancellor wants to raise money he needs to look at people who've got some, even though they spend on drugs and alcohol.

Not people who haven't.

These threads are just antagonistic and pointless. Can nobody else see it’s just a vicious endless circle of;

Poor people- Tax the rich! They have the money to pay it. WHY ARE THE GOV NOT TAXING THE RICH?!

Rich people- If you try to tax us we’ll just take our wealth elsewhere and stop paying what we already do.

Poor People need to realise that the truly wealthy have options and freedoms beyond your wildest dreams. Do you think Boris the billionaire is going to stay put here forking out epic amounts to fund the underclasses? He won’t, he’ll pack his bags and move (For tax purposes) to one of his many other properties. Rich People Need to stop being assholes and pay more (but they probably won’t and certainly aren’t spending their days surfing mumsnet for your opinions) the difference being that poor people don’t have options, whilst the rich do. No amount of shouting ‘you should pay more’ at them is going to make them give a shit!

Taxes are not collected by telling people what they "should" do.

Pumper

Can you think of any form of wealth that it is impossible to move?

If the chancellor wants to raise money he needs to look at people who've got some, even though they spend on drugs and alcohol.

That wouldn't be the Tory way though would it. I really wouldn't worry about better off people like you and me Xenia having money we might notice used to recover from this crisis. Covid will be paid for on the backs the young and the poorest in our society, just like the financial crisis was, so we can breath a huge sigh of relief, we'll still get our second holiday, poor children will just to have holes in their shoes.

My household pays a sh!t load of tax. On top of this we do not use a lot of services. In the 5 year I have lived back here with 2 DC, I have taken them to the doctors twice. We pay for Bupa, don't claim CB, pay all our own dentistry and pay for their schooling.

Do I want to pay more tax? No thanks, we pay enough and take very little out of the pot. If I end up paying more tax, I will take it back with the other hand by using what I am entitled to from the state, which I don't now.

If I end up paying more tax, I will take it back with the other hand by using what I am entitled to from the state, which I don't now.

Actually, I think that's a good thing. It's great if wealthy people use public schools and healthcare, I wish they would use them more. Wealthy people are the most powerful, if they're using public services, public services will improve because they won't put up with poor quality, that'll benefit everyone including the poorest and most disadvantaged children.

Thinking about it a bit more, I actually benefits rich private school using parents if state schools are underfunded. If state schools pupils are getting a worse education there's less competition from them for top university places. So yes, please do use state schools for your children, that way state schools get better, poor children get a better crack at life.

Hi scouse

It's great to hear that you don't use the roads, and won't call the police if you are robbed, or the fire brigade if your house catches fire.

Presumably you have no employees who can read and write, unless you paid for them to be privately educated, and some of them are infected with measles and diphtheria.

I don't think all the local services will suddenly become a lovely Swedish-type utopia if wealthier people start using them. They will just be spread more thinly. Where I live has one of the highest council tax charges in the country. The average house price in my town is £450K. We have the WORST local services I have ever experienced. Our council use our town as a cash cow to spend it elsewhere. There is a joke here that you know you are back in the town because you suddenly start driving on 3rd world roads with pot holes that look like someone has bombed the place.

@KenDodd

If I end up paying more tax, I will take it back with the other hand by using what I am entitled to from the state, which I don't now.

Actually, I think that's a good thing. It's great if wealthy people use public schools and healthcare, I wish they would use them more. Wealthy people are the most powerful, if they're using public services, public services will improve because they won't put up with poor quality, that'll benefit everyone including the poorest and most disadvantaged children.

I think it would be an excellent thing. We’d soon see improvements in education and health if people accustomed to high standards started demanding them in state funded services.

Never in British history have such a small number of UK people borne such a high burden of income tax (and probably others not even realising it! which is particularly annoying - people think self employed therefore tax evasion no tax paid rather than I am so grateful you work so hard to pay so very much of waht you earn to help the lef fortunate. I don't see why HMRC or no 10 cannot send flowers or cards to tax payers who pay a lot of tax. Instead we feel spat upon by most people, hated and others assume we evade all tax).

The reason I have had 7 minutes with my GP only in 15 years is I haven ot got sick. it is not because I use private medical care. I don't even have BUPA cover. I just don't smoke or over eat or drink and that kind of thing and obviously have some luck too. It would be great if my income tax bill could reduce by 20% if I were allowed an opt out of all NHS cover.

My doctor uncle despite his pay got a council house just after WII as that was the thing - IF you worked hard and paid your full NI (but not if you didn't) you got similar state provision - the free grammar schools, university education even very cheap housing even if you were rich. We utterly lost that and set up in stead a system which rewards those who do nothing and gives nothing back to the hardest workers whether they are middle class or a full time delivery driver like my son is. We have the worst of all worlds. We don't have the EU system that you pay in and then take out eg 1 year unemployment benefit if you lose your job but very little if you haven't worked nor do we have a system where tax is very low and we have a very basic welfare state only for those in dire need.

If medical insurance companies start excluding anyone who has had Covid, the NHS might see a leap in customers. Luckily it was massively over resourced anyway, otherwise we could be in for a crisis.

Xenia, the reason people like you are despised is because you have no sense of social responsibility, not because you pay a lot of tax - as you never tire of reminding us.

People who regard taxation as theft or some kind of savings account entirely miss the point of a society in which the strongest protect the weakest. I don’t want a society in which people can’t afford to be ill or which hands out higher benefits to unemployed people because they paid more in than a minimum wage worker. Surely in your low tax, self sufficient world it should be the reverse and high earners should save for a rainy day?

I am not against a welfare state nor the NHS for that matter. I am certainly not at a no tax extreme and I doubt anyone despises me but I would like tax to be lower. When the state takes half people work less - my doctor sibling stopped working on Sundays at one point as once half was taken from you it was better just to spend the spare time with the children so it does have an impact on productivity now taxes are so high.

@Alsohuman

Xenia, the reason people like you are despised is because you have no sense of social responsibility, not because you pay a lot of tax - as you never tire of reminding us.

People who regard taxation as theft or some kind of savings account entirely miss the point of a society in which the strongest protect the weakest. I don’t want a society in which people can’t afford to be ill or which hands out higher benefits to unemployed people because they paid more in than a minimum wage worker. Surely in your low tax, self sufficient world it should be the reverse and high earners should save for a rainy day?

Indeed. Also for the record @Xenia my 7 year old has used the NHS considerably more than you have (21 operations, 31 nights in hospital, 5 days in intensive care) and he doesn't smoke, drink or over eat either.

Drs are saving people's lives and doing an amazing job. Years ago children like my son wouldn't have survived. But the drs did save him and now he and many other people need a lot of money spent on their healthcare, education and social care. We need to pay for all of this somehow. The alternative is to not try and save these people. Personally I would rather tax was higher than for drs to have to tell people that their 32 week baby can't go on a ventilator or that their 60 year old parent can't have a heart bypass operation.

I think there are better alternatives. A higher rate of council tax for larger houses, less tax exemptions, businesses taxed on turnover so larger companies pay a fair share, taxes on Chelsea Tractors, to give examples.

Are they going to take into account my massive mortgage?!?

They need to be looking at taxing online businesses properly, pulling more of the cash in hand economy into the tax system and closing loopholes for businesses/individuals running a business. All the people around us who seem to be super wealthy have their own businesses whereas anyone on PAYE is in the state schools and just getting by.

@MrsFogi

Are they going to take into account my massive mortgage?!?

Why would you think they should ? There's a school of thought that "massive mortgages" are part of the problem ?

@PigletJohn

great to hear that you don't use the roads, and won't call the police if you are robbed, or the fire brigade if your house catches fire

Aren’t all those things covered by council/road tax not income tax? We pay an extortionate amount of council tax Btw so the suggestion of simply raising that on ‘expensive houses’ is insane. Our house is worth £450,000 and we pay 1/3 of our mortgage on bloody council tax. About £300 per month!!!

Whilst I do have a sense of social responsibility I get a bit fed up of people making out like the middle classes don’t already pay higher rates of income tax as it is. We do- It’s not insignificant.

Also, isn’t it ludicrous that UC and other benefits aren’t taking into account for tax purposes? By which I mean, several low income friends of mine have their wage topped up to the equivalent of other friends earning solid full time wages.

If person A earns £25k per year and is expected to pay tax/NI and deemed to need no UC top ups, why is person B working part time and getting topped up to an equivalent £25k not also losing the equivalent of tax/ni?

I have friends making the same amount on paper but one receives £1600 per month as has to pay tax whilst the other gets £2000 as their UC isn’t taxable 🙄 if one family is good to live on £1600 I’m sure the other could manage without that extra £400.