To feel that confident, outgoing people get everything in life?

[RosesEverywhere]

Obviously they don't get everything, but AIBU for thinking that being confident and outgoing makes life so much easier?

Last night I was thinking back to last year at university. For one of our modules we were put into small groups and had to do a presentation for a local company. My group were quite difficult to work with - one refused to do any work until the night before the deadline and one only contributed plagiarised content which luckily I spotted and rewrote. The other two did contribute what had been delegated to them to be fair to them. However I did the bulk of the work. I was the group leader and organised all of the group meetings (some meetings I was the only one of the group to show up). The premise behind the report was my idea and all the evidence and justification of the idea was mine. I did the work that had been delegated to the one who refused to do any work and the one who plagiarised content as well as my own work. This meant I stayed up for several nights until the early hours of the morning. I then basically rewrote the entire report using the work that had been contributed by the two who did contribute but by the end of it I had basically written nearly the entire report (using my group member's research, so they did contribute that).

We presented our report to the group. We each had an equal amount of speaking in the presentation. However two group members are very confident, natural speakers and they spoke really well. I am an ok public speaker, I don't really get nervous but I am not charismatic and confident like they are.

We got our grade back and got 90% and really positive feedback. The bulk of the grade was weighted on the report. Our feedback wrote that our report was the best one they had read since they started this module paired with the local business. I was really proud and happy. However I later found out that the two 'confident' ones had been approached and offered jobs for when they graduate. I am going to be honest it stung, especially when one of those was one who had contributed maybe a handful of sentences to the final report at 3am the night before it was due. I am not bitter about it but it does sting a little. I have no ill feelings towards the two that got offered jobs as they later went on to become really good friends of mine. I just feel like I am overlooked quite a lot because I am not as confident as others.

I think the reason I am suddenly thinking of this now is I am at the beginning of my career about to start applications for a competitive career and I know this kind of thing will happen over and over again for me.

Off topic but I hated group work at uni. I always ended up doing most of it...it was torture. It’s so unfair and if you don’t do it then you’ll get a bad grade yourself. They should just get rid of group worknall together. There was one girl who didn’t contribute anything. The two people who didn’t contribute much have really good jobs/lives whilst the rest of us don’t . Doesn’t help that they are both blonde and pretty.

I realised this just after uni and made a huge effort to learn how to present myself better to the world. You are right, it is life-changing. Do it. You won't regret it.

Lesley Everett's book Walking Tall is old but is still one of the best practical guides I think. She also has a youtube channel and website. The basic point is to decide first what impression you want people to have of you, your "personal brand", then takes steps to make it so. Sounds easy, is hard. Her book helps you work it through. Be warned it feels like therapy, can be gut wrenching.

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0954893506/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_mqW.EbCKRZND0?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

[quote EasynowPatrick]@DjMomo is right. You really haven’t learnt what could be really important for you to understand at the start of your career! Although you value what you did, lots of employers and future colleagues won’t value it as highly as you have. What your colleagues did was get a very well produced piece of work delivered for minimal effort and presented it well. You on the other hand worked incredibly hard for the same output and didn’t present as well. I’m not saying don’t work hard but you have to work smarter if you are going for competitive roles.[/quote]
I am a little confused, can you please elaborate? The purpose of the project was to get a good grade. 80% of that grade was weighted on the written report. If I had not worked hard on the report we would not have gotten that good grade. Getting a potential job offer was never on our radar or part of the assignment, if it had been or if the assignment had been weighted differently I would have adjusted what I spent my energy/time on. Surely that is working smartly?

@TorkTorkBam

I realised this just after uni and made a huge effort to learn how to present myself better to the world. You are right, it is life-changing. Do it. You won't regret it.

Lesley Everett's book Walking Tall is old but is still one of the best practical guides I think. She also has a youtube channel and website. The basic point is to decide first what impression you want people to have of you, your "personal brand", then takes steps to make it so. Sounds easy, is hard. Her book helps you work it through. Be warned it feels like therapy, can be gut wrenching.

]]

Thank you, I will check it out. I recently read The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Branden which I found really helpful. I definitely need to work on my confidence and the way that manifests into my outer behaviour.

You're not wrong and I have experienced similar situations as you. HOWEVER I also have come across a lot of confident/out going people who are rubbish at their jobs. Its annoying to see people promoted ahead of you just because they can talk the talk but i'd rather be where I am and good at my job than have people refer to me as 'Oh overthinker91, I don't know how they got there they are clueless.'

I think you’re probably right in terms of work; people who come across as confident will get jobs more easily and people will trust what they are saying more; just think of politicians. However confidence is a life skill like any other and I’ve found the fake it til you make it approach has worked for me.
Also people who are confident but don’t have the skills/knowledge will get found out (apart from politicians actually): those people who were offered the graduate jobs may not have lasted very long in them if they didn’t have the knowledge expected of them. It’s also something to think about when you hire people in the future or work with people so that people who aren’t confident don’t feel disregarded

It's true . I am that confident and outgoing person who gets jobs easily and half the time I don't even know what I'm doing I just wing it.
But you know what , it's all an act . I'm totally full of doubt and in my head I have absolutely no confidence in anything I do but you can fake it til you make it !

And it's possible that those 'confident' team members actually put the hours in at debating society or drama club or public speaking awards at school to learn that skill. I'm not devaluing or underestimating that your work played the biggest part in the success of the project but don't dismiss how well they delivered it.

I think this is a really valuable point - for some people, confidence and presentation skills are innate, but for many it has taken a lot of work to get them there.

I was a shy child, and was badly bullied. I used to get anxious to the point of throwing up about oral presentations at school. Then when I changed to a different school aged 15 I joined the debating club and went to an after school public speaking society. I also went to several practice interviews when applying for university places. I had lots of practice and worked through a lot of anxiety and now presenting is something I’m good at and don’t find particularly intimidating - even though it’s definitely not an innate trait of mine!

So I hope that gives encouragement to others that it is a skill which can be learned and which will always set you in good stead in the workplace. If you have that alongside the abovementioned research and writing skills, you will likely go far.

If you want to get better at public speaking in a safe space while having a laugh, join your local Toastmasters group.

I lost count of the times when I was younger that I was told I didn't get a job because "I didn't sell myself enough" I hate that bloody phrase

I am rubbish at interviews although I can do the job. I have worked with people who breeze through interviews but are shite at doing the job.

At my feedback on yet another of my unsuccessful interviews, I said that they obviously were looking for someone who could talk about the job, rather than someone who could actually do it well - the guy had no reply.

Been working for 40 years and it’s always been the same, the loud confident people get on.
They usually get found out after a couple of years but by then they have talked their way into another job at a different organisation.
Unfortunately that’s the way it is, so you have to accept it or follow the excellent advice above.

Yanbu.

Take comfort in the fact that at least you aren't as lacking in confidence as me. My lecturer announced a group assignment but I didn't have any friends to work with. I asked one group if I could work with them, they said no. I couldn't work up the courage to ask anyone else and the lecturer said I was not allowed to do it by myself. So I didn't do the assignment and got zero!

Where and how did you learn these techniques @LakieLady? Could you recommend any resources? Thanks

At my feedback on yet another of my unsuccessful interviews, I said that they obviously were looking for someone who could talk about the job, rather than someone who could actually do it well - the guy had no reply

Probably because that's a really shortsighted and arrogant response. You basically just told the guy that you know better than he does about what is needed for the role that he's hiring for, and that you have better skills than the person who got it, which you can't possibly know.

Look how many people on this thread have already constructed "confident and outgoing" in opposition to "good at the job", i.e. you can't be both. That's a comforting thing to tell yourself if you struggle with "selling yourself", but it isn't reality. Being confident and outgoing are legitimate assets in many, many jobs, and far from incompatible with other "hard" skills like, say, accounting, coding, or managing people. All jobs involve collaborating with others and building relationships, and confident and outgoing people often do this well because being confident and outgoing helps other people feel good and demands less of them. That doesn't mean you can't be an introvert/naturally quiet. Lots of introverted people thrive in employment at all levels. But it is worth cultivating the skill of being confident. If you don't believe you're good, why should someone else? You ought to know better than they do, after all. If you're trying to convince me of something, like that you'll be great at a job or the company should take X action, you need to sound like you believe it yourself.

Confidence opens door, competence retains credibility. Being confident will likely get you the job ahead of someone who isn’t confident. But once in that job, bullshitters get found out fairly quickly.

I imagine the person who posted that was a bit jaded for one of the many reasons stated above. I get a bit fed up with people far younger and less experienced than me at work trying to coach me. Just no. I can well imagine them getting promoted through sheer bullshit

@ComDummings

Outgoing and confident people get a lot more credit even if they are mediocre.

Yes i think this is true

There is so much wonderful advice in this thread, thank you. I don't want to say what my exact field is but it is one where public speaking and confidence isn't as important as it would be in other fields (like working in sales, for example). However it obviously is important in all fields and is a skill I think investing time and energy into improving would pay dividends in all facets of my life.

I think I am quietly confident. I usually know my work is of a good standard as I hold myself to impossibly high standards (perfectionism). I just struggle with selling myself and will always brush off good feedback and compliments. I am nervous about interviews and job applications as I know I do not portray myself accurately. I think I always worry that I will come across as bragging.

Not sure if this has been suggested but Toastmasters.org will help you work on your public speaking in a safe and supportive environment. Hopefully there's a club near you.

@RosesEverywhere they got the grade as well! The total grade isn’t yours because you did the leg work, working smartly isn’t being the only one to do the work! Do you think none of them would have produced anything if you hadn’t been there to pick up the slack?

Also don’t worry about bragging! Practice it if you need to. Most people will not know how good you are until you tell them. You don’t have to get your loudspeaker out but you if you done something great let people know

*you’ve

Do more physically attractive people get everything in life?
Another interesting one..

I am nervous about interviews and job applications as I know I do not portray myself accurately. I think I always worry that I will come across as bragging.

Everybody brags in a job application and interview. I have recruited a lot over the years. I assume the applicant is putting the best possible spin on themselves, really talking themselves up.

So, if you go in with a "meh" description of yourself then I will divide that by two and think actually you must be crap if that's the best you can spin it.

Also, I work with lots of technical people who do not have to do public speaking. They do often have to talk to colleagues from other departments and sometimes senior leaders. If the person is incapable of putting their best face forward and even bigging up the achievements, when appropriate, then that's a problem.

I always worry that I will come across as bragging.
That's your female socialisation talking. Do you think the men going for the same job will hang back for fear of someone maybe thinking they are maybe bragging? Do you think they would care if people did think they were bragging? I doubt it.