To wonder if Cabin crew unions being unrealistic at the moment ?

[Deadcatbounce]

Genuinely not sure, been following the news from BA, Easyjet Ryanair and Jet 2.

All these airlines have announced proposed job losses, which I thought was inevitable.

A friend of mine at BA however thinks that any job losses or pay cuts are out of order and agrees with Union they must be stopped.

Haven't debated with her as it's an awful time for her , but surely in current circumstances job losses should be expected?

Happy to be told I am wrong etc just curious what people think.

There's a balance somewhere between just sacking 1000s as the easy option and having to reduce staff to stop from going under. Unions have to realise that or they destroy their own livelihood.

They are being unrealistic at at least one of those companies.

Best they can hope for is keeping as many people as possible "on board" by accepting a probably significant reduction in T&Cs, and also hope that by canny negotiating they can get a guarantee an improvement in T&Cs once the good times return.

There's not a snowballs chance in heck of keeping everybody employed and and on unchanged pay/T&C.

Job losses are happening in the rail industry even though those jobs were 'key worker' and a lot carried on regardless. Your friend is being completely blinkered. The economy has shrunk, so many people will lose their jobs in the next 6 months that holidays will be for the very few.

Michael O'Leary owns Ryan Air and his net worth is nearly 1 billion Euros. Perhaps he can afford to sustain the business without job losses if he tightens his boot straps a little?

I take it you have a job and are safe OP?

Of course she is going to agree with her union trying to keep jobs.

The danger is (and what the unions are fighting BA against), is getting rid of everyone and re-employing them on less wages and worse t's & c's.

Terrible time for 1000's of people.

Maybe holding on to what little fight there is, is giving your friend a glimmer of hope.

This must be a dreadful time for a lot of people, I feel so sorry for them. I agree with LockdownLump.

BA has wanted to slash worker's pay and conditions for a decade. Last time the unions won. BA is now taking advantage of the situation to bring the changes in, for example by asking staff to take 40% pay cuts, and give up all their terms and conditions. Parliament has been very critical of BA's behaviour.

My friend works for Virgin & they voted for pay cuts etc. But I think they treat their staff well from what she says. She used to work for Jet2

Actually, 60% pay cuts in some cases. That's while BA is busy buying another airline which suggests it is not short of readies.

That's while BA is busy buying another airline which suggests it is not short of readies.

It's actually, IAG, not BA, that's looking at purchasing Air Europa.

@bibbitybobbitycats

BA has wanted to slash worker's pay and conditions for a decade. Last time the unions won. BA is now taking advantage of the situation to bring the changes in, for example by asking staff to take 40% pay cuts, and give up all their terms and conditions. Parliament has been very critical of BA's behaviour.

Agree with this.

It's reasonable that there will need to be some changes, redundancies, but there needs to be a fair process which is what the union is fighting for rather than simply making redundancies en masse saying it was all down to Covid.

I’m one of them. Everyone would be totally onboard with wage cuts and compromises over the next few years. The company won’t even consider it. They want to make huge cuts to pay, permanently, with new contracts meaning they can drop their workforce several weeks of the year if it suits them. The airline I work for has billions in banks and reserves. It could easily tide this out. It just wants to save the huge, huge bonuses paid at the top every year (millions each) rather than the frontline staff that have given them decades of wonderful service over the years. Yes some of them are well paid, but were recruited because they were the best (I was offered jobs at several other airlines when I got my job and most others on my starting course had degrees).

If you look into it closer you’ll find it’s not just the unions saying this. There are many MPs supporting the unions - from all parties. That should tell you something.

By the way this same airline was sending us out in early March with very little in the way of gloves and sanitizer and expecting us to do full meal services to keep the service going. One of my colleagues has died if Covid, many others have been v ill- some are now. Yet the minute the shit hit the fan we were dropped. People are worried sick. One guy kicked himself. So we have to fight, why wouldn’t we. The country cannot let a big company do this or it will be a race to the bottom and there will be a dreary future for our children..

Killed himself not kicked

Oh Honeyroar -

It’s one thing airlines having to make redundancies or cuts to survive and quite another if they just use this as a snide opportunity to bring in pay cuts and reductions to terms.

Climate Emergency. Pandemics. Flying ought never to be resumed on the scale it was.

When the first cars and bicycles arrived, there were jobs lost among saddle makers, blacksmiths and grooms. They were unemployed unless they found other ways to earn a living. None were 'furloughed' at the expense of the rest of the population.

There is nothing good about spend spend spend to wreck the planet. G.D.P. is a false idol. Politicians (and unions) who cannot take their minds out of the 19th century are as absurd as a modern army chief lining up cannons and demanding a bigger stock of swords for the cavalry.

Good riddance to non .essential flights, and to mindless ways to make the population obese, drunken and debt ridden, all in worship of 'The Economy '. Wellbeing is principally from things which aren't shown on the G.D.P., such as volunteering, caring for family, talking with friends, lending a hand to a neighbour, hearing birdsong, growing a plant, being near trees.

It’s the job of unions in any field to advocate and lobby for their members to get the best possible deals or contract changes. Sometimes they go in with higher demands than is likely to be granted, but it’s a negotiation tool. They’ll purposefully put pressure on bosses as part of the process.

@foamrolling

Michael O'Leary owns Ryan Air and his net worth is nearly 1 billion Euros. Perhaps he can afford to sustain the business without job losses if he tightens his boot straps a little?

What does his personal wealth have to do with Ryanair, he runs it he doesn't own it!

I think it’s reasonable to expect that there will be some reduction pay/Ts and Cs and number of staff but the unions will fight to minimise this and make sure that it isn’t a permanent decline - so if and when travel goes back to 2019 levels staff will be back to where they were in 2019 in terms of pay etc. My DH is a pilot and this is the deal BALPA have tried to get for them - a reduction in pay of 20%, rising back up in increments to full pay by 2023, on the understanding that this plus voluntary part time and redundancy agreements will minimise job losses.

I don’t think anybody really expects nothing to change but they also don’t want the airlines to be able to complete freedom to reduce staff numbers and Ts and Cs as if they do, they’ll be brutal. Particularly airlines like BA who will use this as an opportunity to get rid of the legacy contracts.

It sounds to me like the millionaires and billionaires owning these companies are opportunistically finding ways to shaft their employees in order to continue lining their pockets.

What is really frustrating is seeing how often working people are willing to turn on fellow workers who dare try to stand up for their terms and conditions I some awful rush to the bottom where anyone who is employed should be snivellingly grateful for whatever crumbs the CEO will offer.

By the nature of their contracts the people BA want to make redundant have a minimum 10 years service. As someone else said they’ve been trying for a long time to get staff off these contracts. It isn’t just an issue of pay cuts though, the conditions mean that some people simply will not be able to do the job any more. Those who fly short haul often do so because they have children and want to go home at the end of their working day, many on who fly long haul live outside of London because they fly fewer flights.

@Honeyroar I'm so sorry you're going through this. My auntie is too, she's been BA crew for 30 years. It's heartbreaking. And my sister is a BA pilot. Her union has offered BA lots of options - compulsory part time, a year's unpaid leave. They're having none of it.

The company is taking advantage of the situation to push through changes it's wanted to make for years.

It's all very well for people to say "watcha gonna do" but it's not their job on the line. Staff and unions are trying. BA ain't listening.

And my sister is a BA pilot. Her union has offered BA lots of options - compulsory part time, a year's unpaid leave. They're having none of it.

I heard the pilot union negotiations were still ongoing but not much was being released to the members on how they were progressing.

I do know at least one part time contract (87.5% - as in 7 available weeks then one guaranteed week off) had been offered, plus a very average voluntary redundancy scheme might be made available for those that want it.

@notimagain

That's while BA is busy buying another airline which suggests it is not short of readies.

It's actually, IAG, not BA, that's looking at purchasing Air Europa.

Which is BAs parent company. I shoud have been more specific and said that IAG, BAs parent company, can't be short of cash...

Michael O'Leary owns Ryan Air and his net worth is nearly 1 billion Euros. Perhaps he can afford to sustain the business without job losses if he tightens his boot straps a little?

Why don't businesses put more aside when the times are good for the rainy days. When Philip Green loaded Arcadia with debt to take a 1 billion dividend the writing was on the wall for Arcadia.

Having said that aviation is going through a downturn less business flights & less leisure so it's impossible to keep all jobs.