To wonder if Cabin crew unions being unrealistic at the moment ?

[Deadcatbounce]

Genuinely not sure, been following the news from BA, Easyjet Ryanair and Jet 2.

All these airlines have announced proposed job losses, which I thought was inevitable.

A friend of mine at BA however thinks that any job losses or pay cuts are out of order and agrees with Union they must be stopped.

Haven't debated with her as it's an awful time for her , but surely in current circumstances job losses should be expected?

Happy to be told I am wrong etc just curious what people think.

Honeyroar some friends of mine work for BA and I heard about that poor chap. BA is behaving disgustingly.

I shoud have been more specific and said that IAG, BAs parent company,

Yep, BA is an IAG OpCo....

Anyhow rumours are now circulating that because of the financial situation the Air Europa deal might not happen anyway so maybe there's not as much cash in the bank as people think:

uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/iag-reviewing-planned-acquisition-air-144329753.html?soc_src=community&soc_trk=wa&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9mb3J1bS5iYWxwYS5vcmcv&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHpFZNp40gTI88vH_ylZbhnzr4351tUyob7rCr4BB-3B0Cw_p_5EBcl_RsEzFtBeKQyevlN6aNveZatqv5JA8L4AjWUcEowFCk0RxK04DeCe6A46mhn4i9ZjaWr9-_qztBtKbrqvD467NDrwRPDjAEUOER9Kbcv-VjrCZOJcLPCH

They have hot money put aside, they’d just rather it went into their bonus next March. Our CEO and his buddies on the board have bought themselves hundreds of thousands of pounds of shares too. They don’t think this business is going down, they think they’ll make a fortune if they sit this out. Plus the IAG group, which owns BA in Spain is buying itself another airline. Not the actions of a company tightening its belt.

*Climate Emergency. Pandemics. Flying ought never to be resumed on the scale it was.

When the first cars and bicycles arrived, there were jobs lost among saddle makers, blacksmiths and grooms. They were unemployed unless they found other ways to earn a living. None were 'furloughed' at the expense of the rest of the population. *

I expect a lot of them spent the rest of their lives in poverty or worse. I for one am happy that we have moved forward somewhat and that the furlough scheme exists as I have no problem with the state helping out my fellow citizens in a time of need. If I have to pay more tax, so be it.

@LolaSmiles

It sounds to me like the millionaires and billionaires owning these companies are opportunistically finding ways to shaft their employees in order to continue lining their pockets.

What is really frustrating is seeing how often working people are willing to turn on fellow workers who dare try to stand up for their terms and conditions I some awful rush to the bottom where anyone who is employed should be snivellingly grateful for whatever crumbs the CEO will offer.

This is so true and this is the real reason we don't have better pay and conditions in the UK.

Why don't businesses put more aside when the times are good for the rainy days
Because the system we have means shareholders expect dividends at all costs.

[quote notimagain]I shoud have been more specific and said that IAG, BAs parent company,

Yep, BA is an IAG OpCo....

Anyhow rumours are now circulating that because of the financial situation the Air Europa deal might not happen anyway so maybe there's not as much cash in the bank as people think:

uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/iag-reviewing-planned-acquisition-air-144329753.html?soc_src=community&soc_trk=wa&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9mb3J1bS5iYWxwYS5vcmcv&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHpFZNp40gTI88vH_ylZbhnzr4351tUyob7rCr4BB-3B0Cw_p_5EBcl_RsEzFtBeKQyevlN6aNveZatqv5JA8L4AjWUcEowFCk0RxK04DeCe6A46mhn4i9ZjaWr9-_qztBtKbrqvD467NDrwRPDjAEUOER9Kbcv-VjrCZOJcLPCH[/quote]
That link didn't work for me?

@Hingeandbracket that's the problem

The rich keep getting richer

The rich keep getting richer

BA behaviour if it was just redundancies and some routes stopping would be understandable. It's more that that though.

That link didn't work for me?

Apologies, hope this Reuters link works..

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-iberia-aireuropa/iag-reviewing-planned-acquisition-of-air-europa-says-iberia-ceo-idUKKBN23Z0IS

Even if you are correct why on earth do you feel the need to come on here and be told so?

@fivebrokentests

How aggressive and rude, have you heard about learning and debate to gain an opinion , don't shut down people who want to learn please.

Thanks to all who posted it's been informative and enlightening

Flying ought never to be resumed on the scale it was.
When the first cars and bicycles arrived, there were jobs lost among saddle makers, blacksmiths and grooms. They were unemployed unless they found other ways to earn a living. None were 'furloughed' at the expense of the rest of the population.

Furlough isn't comparable here though- the industry isn't gone.

Better than passive aggressive and snide.

Obviously people don't want to lose their jobs. Your insistence that it's inevitable helps nobody.

Would you have the balls to tell your friend that? Didn't think so.

What exactly are you looking to learn beyond the fact that you feel you're right? 🤷🏿‍♀️

Thank you to everyone who was kind in their comments.x

Furlough isn't comparable here though- the industry isn't gone

It hasn't, but moving back to the subject of the thread the problem is perception and one union in particular, whilst doing a good job with it's PR, has perhaps concentrated on demonising certain personalities whilst perhaps not enough time communicating the realities.

If you cut through the mainstream media (who are often just repeating selected press releases) and look at the general aviation press it becomes horribly obvious just what a utter mess the industry is in at the moment and is likely to be for some time (for example in the last 24-48 hours news of Airbus laying off 15,000, talk of El Al stopping flying completely TFN)....

That's the reality, on the ground, in the air, world wide. I think ATM any group of flying staff at any airline thinking they are so special they are not going to suffer any redundancies and also maintain current T&Cs, are being utterly unrealistic.

Being realistic I'd be negotiating for a temporary change in T&Cs (yes, I know, that opens a whole other can of worms) and hope compulsory redundancies could be avoided.

Are the people who lead the unions also working crew and pilots or do they work full time at the unions?

Forgive my ignorance

There are union reps for every area who work in that area. I honestly think the unions have been awful at the moment. I get there isnt much they can actually do but not turning up to negotiations and starting smear campaigns and asking for slot removal surely will just make things worse for all staff. I have several friends who feel very let down right now.

Also if you look at iata forecasts the industry is going to be really difficult for years. All the airlines taking on loans now will have to start paying them back next year or the year after when cash will be gone. Short term, some airlines have cash to ride it out but mid term, well theres some trouble coming for a lot of airlines. It's so sad.

Thanks, if the unions don't turn up to negotiate does that delay redundancies as the airline needs union agreement ?

Honestly I dont know. I think it's a legal question really but I would imagine court/ mediators would side with the airlines if they are trying to consult, sending invites and info. It's a mess.

Are the people who lead the unions also working crew and pilots or do they work full time at the unions?

The talking heads at the very top of those Unions, the ones you see on TV ( Unite - Len McCluskey, BALPA- Brian Strutton) are elected into full time posts and have usually been "sourced" externally; they are employees of the Union(s).

The people actually doing most of the day to day negotiating ATM, and those tasked with getting a deal agreed are usually cabin crew/pilots who are elected as union reps. They usually remain employed by the company, so they will still fly, but usually (but not always) have a reduced working commitment to allow for Union duties.

The reps often have a full time Union employed Industrial relations/legal experts on call to help out during negotiations.

HTH.