To think all this left wing vs right wing stuff is escalating?

[rubydoobydoo]

I've always been of the opinion that I don't care about a person's politics, all I care is if they're a twat or not. I've always had non-twatty friends with various political leanings which has never been an issue but recently things seem to have changed and you either have to be one or the other - and it's turning previously non-twatty people into compete twats!

I don't identify as either, but recently it suddenly seems to be causing massive divisions with lots of people when it just never came up previously!

Has it always been like this and I've been living in a world of my own until now? It's like the right wing people think all left wing people are one block who think exactly the same about everything and vice versa and I just don't get it?

I'm probably not articulating well here but I've seen so many arguments lately that I'm sure never would have happened about ten years ago and society seems to be getting so much more divisive.

At least we have a non political source of news in the BBC.

I have genuinely been thinking about setting up an educational charity which goes into schools to teach kids about evaluating primary and secondary sources of information and teaches them to debate and think about others’ point of view. Anyone with me?!

That is an excellent idea! Part of the problem is that a billion channels and online media outlets, plus 24-hr rolling news, means that content has to be dredged from somewhere, so you end up with 'news' providers regurgitating posts from Twitter, etc., and passing them off as 'news' ~ and so the snake eats it's own tail ...

I agree it is an awful divisive place we find ourselves in.

I also agree that it is the hard left that is the problem at the moment. One of the problems is that we are very clear about what hard right looks like, but it is less clear what hard left looks like. Corbyn for example was hard left but it was very difficult to see that because he hid under causes that you'd obviously have to be a monster to disagree with. On the hard right, it is easy to spot what bad looks like, but hard left arguments always make some sense at the surface level so 'eradicate inequality' sounds really appealing and again you'd have to be a monster not to agree with that. But scratch under the surface and 'eradicate poverty' means dismantling capitalism completely and becoming communist.

I think that is where SM also enhances this. You put up a meme saying 'eradicate poverty' or whatever slogan which is obviously 'good' and then everyone is expected to engage at this level and 'like' it - you are clearly a monster if you don't.

Slogans are really important and BLM is another which is fucking obvious and you have to agree with, but underneath it are some very marxist views - again to dismantle capitalism and become a marxist state.

The slogans have to be obviously things that you cannot disagree with and then the whole thing takes off. And this is where the hard left are causing the issues.

"You don't agree with BLM?" Well you are obviously a monster. And that's it, divisions and nuance lost. You are either in or out - you either agree that BLM or you don't. There is no room on SM to be saying - of course BLM, but dismantling capitalism just might not be the way to do it.

Another thing that might be going on is something that Douglas Murray calls "retired St George syndrome". The crux of this is that life is really really easy for us in the west. We don't have to fight for anything anymore, we kind of have the basics of our needs sorted. Which seems great, but actually humans are built for struggle. And St George, when he was out slaying dragons was motivated and engaged with life, gaining all the glory. But when retired, he lost that sense of achievement and status. Because people don't have much opportunity to 'slay a dragon' and become a hero, all these Social Justice campaigns become the thing they 'fight'. It gives you status and gives you something to do! And you can see then, why it tends to be middle class lefties who actually take up these causes - they are the ones who have fewer 'dragons' in their lives to fight and just need something to feel good about themselves.

Capitalism is the root cause of poverty, not capitalist dos not equal communism, nice try though

Totally agree OP. Twenty odd years ago I did a politics degree and have always loved political discussion and debate, but I just don't engage any more. It seems that you have to pick your party and blindly support everything they do, like supporting a football team. Any labour voter is branded a leftard remoaner snowflake and Tories are racist nazis, its ridiculous.

I'm a centrist, slightly left but in my lifetime have voted labour, conservative, lib dem and green depending on what I though the country needed at that moment in time and the individual candidate in my area. I have I party loyalty and no tribal axe to grind but still get called a leftie snowflake as I voted Labour last time.

I like Starmer and think he represents a centrist position which, until the Brexit campaign, I felt most of the country were comfortable with. Unfortunately I don't think we'll ever see him as PM as we have fallen for wanting a 'celebrity', big character and performer as our leader. He's just too quiet, considered and thoughtful to bring the extremes into the centre. We embrace anti intellectualism in this country for some reason.

Absolutely about learning about primary and secondary sources.

I admit to having deleted a few friends who are Trump supporters (am American) mostly as I realised that I didn't have anything in common with them, and since social media is something I do on my own time, I was getting angry.

Also, I think the fact that the right think that the BBC is a leftist organisation which should be defunded and the left think it's a tory mouthpiece means its probably somewhere in the middle and getting it largely right in terms of showing all views.

its probably somewhere in the middle and getting it largely right in terms of showing all views.

The revolving door between the conservative party, affiliates and donors and the BBC would suggest otherwise

Justanotherposter00 totally understand that view but the right, including my tory MP, are calling for defunding due to its left wing bias. Both sides can't be correct can they?

I've always been of the opinion that I don't care about a person's politics, all I care is if they're a twat or not.

I think these two are not separate issues but intrinsically linked.

The question I would ask is how far to the right is your MP if he thinks the BBC is leftwing, I would look back to the early 2000's for when the BBC starting shifting from a centrist-ish position, I think after the 2010 election thats when it began to shift significantly and has become more apparent since the referendum in 2016

Capitalism is the root cause of poverty, not capitalist dos not equal communism, nice try though

What makes you say that capitalism in the root cause of poverty?

And what are the other systems other than capitalism, if it is not communism?

Capitalism relies on inequality, it could be a lot worse because we havent quite gone the full free market route yet thankfully

JustAnotherPoster00 I'm under no illusion that he's pretty far right. He's become somewhat infamous for saying things like unemployment people should be sterilised etc. But he's certainly not alone in his view there are plenty of people who think the BBC is left. My personal view is that the corporation is decidedly right wing but there are many editors and journalists trying to push back to the centre. My comment wasn't to enter a debate about funding I'm aware of that, just an observation that we've become so polarized that each side has decided the BBC is the enemy.

@JustAnotherPoster00

The BBC are as left as you get.

How far right of a direction do you need to be coming from to think that the BBC is left wing

Precisely. The far right think the BBC’s communist, the far left think it’s Thatcherite. That indicates to me that it’s probably pretty balanced.

I don’t think we’re more polarised than we’ve ever been, we’re more vocal though. I’m old enough to remember Powell’s rivers of blood speech, no politician would survive the fallout from that now.

Capitalism relies on inequality, it could be a lot worse because we havent quite gone the full free market route yet thankfully

That's not an answer. It is just a soundbite.

What is the relationship between capitalism and poverty? Is your view that it increases poverty through inequality?

Why do you think that?

And what are the alternatives to capitalism, other than communism?

I have genuinely been thinking about setting up an educational charity which goes into schools to teach kids about evaluating primary and secondary sources of information and teaches them to debate and think about others’ point of view. Anyone with me?!

Also, basic descriptive statistics and the idea that correlation is not the same as causation.

There is another polarised viewpoint about all of this though, with hardcore conspiracy theorists at one end and complete unquestioning at the other where no one ever asks 🤔why might people want to persuade me to hold this point of view, how does it benefit them?

Alsohuman so glad someone else see's the BBC criticism in the same light as I do.

I like Corbyn and I like Starmer, I voted Remain but didn't want another referendum and accepted that we would be leaving the EU. I think in real life most people have nuance/complexity in their political views. Social media on the other hand doesn't do nuance, I've been called a mix of things on social media - idiot, sensible, nazi, marxist, commie, centrist, red tory, elitist, racist, libtard, brexiteer etc etc by people on all sides of politics including my own. I don't care any more about social media. My friends and family in real life who are a mix of left/right, remain/leave are who matter.

@violetparis, that’s my experience too. The extreme left think I’m a red Tory, the usual suspect Tory supporters on MN think I’m a communist.

@Whatafustercluck

I think most people are probably centrist. Which is why Kier Starmer is really good for the Labour Party and at this point is the UK's best hope. For the record, before I get a drubbing from all the Corbyn fans, i have pretty much always voted Labour - with the exception of European elections where I've voted tactically Green or Lib Dem.

I would say most of the people I call friends are slightly left of centre. We gravitate to those generally with similar values. But one of the loveliest men I know - our neighbour over the road - votes Tory. We enjoy a good debate and remain friends.

That's lovely to hear that you are friends and can have a good natured debate.

Everything is so polarised now. I think people are being exposed to media which is either further to the left or right than they previously would have. Social media also tends to highlight either side, rather the centre, and those on the fringes tend to shout the loudest.

I wonder if everyone in the centre (on either the right or left) keeps quiet as they are scared of being shouted down by either side? I know I do. FWIW I would have previously considered myself to be pretty left but I don't now as it has gone so far. I'd say I'm centre left, I wouldn't vote Conservative. I try to see other people's points of view as this is the only way we can move forward.

The Greater Good Science Centre has some interesting articles on the political divide (it's American so their politics is even more divided than ours)
greatergood.berkeley.edu/politics

Your Political Opponents Aren’t as Radical as You Think They Are

• Democrats and Republicans misjudge each other's beliefs, a new report suggests.

greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/your_political_opponents_arent_as_radical_as_you_think_they_are

Both sides tended to drastically overestimate how much partisans on the other side of the aisle disagreed with them on these basic value statements. The nature of these disagreements suggests that partisans on both sides believe that their political opponents are far more extreme than they actually are.

That was the article I've been hunting for, basically people are misjudging each other and are actually have more in common than not.

Are Social Media Driving Political Polarization?
greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/is_social_media_driving_political_polarization

@feesh

It’s an awful issue that’s paralysing society at the moment. Part of the problem is that nothing unites us any more. Remember when we only had 4 TV channels, so people would all watch the same programmes, and in doing so would see a healthy debate and different points of view? And then all discuss it together the next day. Now, we have a million different TV channels, so Bob sits there watching car programmes every night whilst berating the “lefty” BBC and avoiding any kind of news programme.

Then he gets his news from his mates on Twitter/Reddit/FB, blocks anyone who disagrees with him and only chats online with people who share his views.

Honestly, it’s terrifying for future generations. It also fuels issues such as terrorism.

I have genuinely been thinking about setting up an educational charity which goes into schools to teach kids about evaluating primary and secondary sources of information and teaches them to debate and think about others’ point of view. Anyone with me?!

That is a wonderful idea. Teaching critical thinking is so important.

I agree that there's no critical thinking anymore, it's all about joining in and bandwagoning. If you don't joint a cause then everybody turns on you.

So we swing between extremes and the pendulum goes faster and faster and mows down everybody in the middle.

And we have the 24 hour news and SM, relentless and egging everybody on.

Twitter and YouTube algorithms have a lot to answer for pushing viewers down polarising rabbit-holes.