Anyone got ideas on HOW secondary schools can go back full time in Sept?

[Fizzysours]

I am a teacher and I want schools back now. Many of my pupils are getting really low and lonely and about 40% are not managing the work we set. I just don't get how full time will work in Sept though because....
-with one metre distancing we can fit 20, not 30 in a class
-kids will have to sit at one desk all day, to reduce transmission on objects, teachers would rotate
-so if we 'set' the class for english, the setting will be totally wrong for maths, and vice versa, so what level do we teach them? They won't get good appropriate work, but a 'one size for all'- shockingly hard for them
-what about their options? Half of each bubble doing geography, half history etc.....
-how do they get lunch? We can only stagger it so much, with rotating teachers.
Anyone else thinking this is just going to be so hard? Do we give in and have school as normal, with the really high infection risks? If it's as above, these kids cannot be expected to perform at GCSE.

Have I missed some really simple solution? It just seems impossible. But they must come back. Home is just so hard for them.

We teach mixed ability for English. Always have. I see no problem with this set up y7-9. But problems arise for option classes.

The school must put on more buses so they're less crowded

Most children use normal buses not school buses round here. The buses laid on for schools are provided by the authority here too generally. The buses, regardless of either option, are packed full. Unless the LA put on more buses (where will these come from?) then it is what it is. Or we could stagger starts but that is a huge job to organise for secondaries where timetables already take weeks to plan on order to make them work.

If schools were providing them who will pay for extra buses and extra drivers and bus escorts?

Would need to recruit lots more teachers but could secondary schools open 8-6 including weekends? This would increase capacity significantly. Working weekends may also help those teachers who are struggling with childcare in the week. Times reporting today that there's been huge surge in teaching applications from middle aged professionals, although obviously would need to be trained. Also government could offer a laptop and broadband scheme like the 'bike to work scheme' so parents can buy at reduced rate and pay back small amount monthly. Would this be possible?

I think a laptop/technology buying scheme, maybe tax free would actually be really helpful for some families. We are a middle income family and we do have a laptop but we both need it for work and limited finances to buy another for the children to use. Tax free laptops with 0% finance would really help.

I thought they'd promised a full set of guidelines by the end of this month?

Is that like the original reopening guidance document for primaries for June. It arrived a few days before schools were to reopen in draft format, in the holidays. It has since had dozens of changes, mostly not really practical and some not even remotely feasible.
Then more drafts covering opening to all years in primary and then that idea was scrapped entirely so the latter plans were pointless.

I think you believe the government actually have a clue about what they think can happen and how. I doubt most have been near a school in the last couple of decades based in the guidelines I've read over the last couple of months! I'm just glad I'm not one of the people trying to work out how to follow them and make them even vaguely work!

Having taught in umpteen secondary schools, none could have coped with social distancing. Masks impede communication by muffling speech and removing non-verbal expression (I can only just cope in the supermarket when I can infer that I'm probably being asked to pay looks at till for number and would I like a reciept). It's another layer of distraction and fidgeting (and wonderful potential for anonymising disruptive whispering or humming...)
PPE is just not suitable for a classroom environment.

Secondaries need to come back as near normal. KS3 timetables have more scope for "bubbles" of tutor group based teaching at a cost of setting across subjects. Not a chance at GCSE/ A-Level. Assemblies and other larger gatherings can be dropped. I have always admired the dark arts of devising a secondary timetable for 200 staff, 1500 pupils and a full to capacity site.

There just isn't the slack in the system to do much else other than compromise even more classroom contact time than what has been lost already.

Any social distancing in schools will be pointless when they walk in together and walk home together/congregate at the end of the day. Perhaps scrap in schools. Have lots of hand washing. Send home students with a temperature for a test.

I imagine it depends on the rates of transmission/infection in your own local area. Perhaps if an outbreak then shut a particular school but not all of them. A bit like the hospital several weeks ago with an outbreak it just shut for a week the A&E etc. Made sense and contained the outbreak.

As more and more people have obviously had this maybe the rates of infection will continue to drop as they are doing so?

Let’s be honest the government doesn’t know because it doesn’t work. Only option is to throw us under the bus and remove SD.

It isn't going to happen, because there isn't the space and facilities to allow full return to school for all 11 to 16s plus SD. And there wouldn't be time to make sufficient changes by then even if the funding were there. Which it isn't. So, because it's impossible to combine full time return to secondary with SD, at least one of these things is going to be compromised. If I were a betting woman I'd say the latter.

I also think aspects of education where pupils tend to use the same equipment and can't really bring their own, like science experiments and DT, might be stopped for the time being. Because if it's a choice between stopping something or the state throwing enough extra resources at an activity to make it safe, it'll be the cheaper one.

@zafferana in what other business do you get told there is a plan but we are not going to tell you what it is. If a project manager had a meeting with a client and told them they had a plan but weren’t going to tell them what it was for another 2 weeks and weren’t going to answer any questions on it before then, they would lose that client very quickly.

Some local private schools break up on 2nd July, so probably before the guidance even comes out. And they have to follow the same guidance.

There is a lot of planning that needs to be done before the start of a new academic year in normal circumstances, never mind now. Timetables don’t just write themselves.

Schools were told yesterday that there was this wonderful extra funding for the catch up plan, but extra details are needed for that before schools can work out what they can do with it. Also it seems that schools have to bear some of the additional costs for tutoring etc themselves. Most schools don’t have the money for additional costs. The schools I am a governor for have to submit their budgets for next year next week. How can they finalise them without this additional information.

Schools have incurred additional costs this term due to COVID. State schools aren’t allowed to furlough staff. If they have nursery staff and catering staff they still have to pay them even when they are not getting dinner money or nursery income to cover these costs. If they employ catering company instead they still have to honour the contract. No additional funding has been received from the Government. If there are additional costs required to set up schools for next term, who is going to fund that? Our budgets are so tight that we are having to reduce the number of teachers and mix year groups so will have class sizes of over 30. All of which isn’t great when trying to plan what is going to happen in schools in September.

I think you set for maths over English. English can be taught in mixed-ability classes at secondary far more easily than maths. It is tough for option years and the sets might have to be based on the options instead, or options just have to be online (even if delivered in class via screens and headphones).

A very real question

Some schools have continued all through this pandemic, with vulnerable and key worker children in.
I would be very surprised if they have actually managed to keep social distancing in those settings (in fact teachers have come on her and that it has been impossible to social distance)

What are the infections rates amongst those children and staff?

Pretty much anyone who is out of the door now, is encountering other people.
The aisles in asda are not even 2 m wide, so the idea that you can properly social distance even in the shop is a joke.
As buses, trains and town centres get busy, no-one is social disctaning properly, there isn't enough space.

But what people are doing is keeping some distance, not shaking hands/hugging etc, being aware of hand sanitizer and hand washing, and (hopefully) being very aware of symptoms and staying home.

Those things do actually work for most situations.

@Davincitoad

Let’s be honest the government doesn’t know because it doesn’t work. Only option is to throw us under the bus and remove SD.

Yep. That’s exactly what will happen. Along with the removal of shielding status for less severe issues, and all vulnerable groups. Also they will wheel in some form of disclaimer that you’ll have to sign to go back to work. If not there will end up being resignation as an option or conduct/ capability. It won’t necessarily amount to disability discrimination because many of the vulnerable categories don’t fall under the banner of disability. They will put something in to statute anyway to protect themselves from claims re the virus as far as possible. We may see a number of staff having to leave the profession. There are currently a number of private schools which have had to cease reading so maybe some teachers floating around in the job market. Also former teachers who left the profession and have been made redundant in their industry profession as a result of Covid-19

@steppemum they tended to be in small groups and were separated from other groups, so effectively bubbles before bubbles were thought of. Not full classes. Also very reduced staff were on site.

It is hopeful that schools aren’t a hotspot for this virus. I think there is a study being carried out on a group of schools to monitor the virus over the next few weeks which may provide more information on the transmission of it in schools, which hopefully will help with planning in September. But I don’t think the results are due until August so doesn’t give much time.

Steppemum it has been impossible to SD fully but with a maximum of 6 children in a group who stay together all day, it has been totally different to a normal school situation, very small staffing numbers too.

What are the infections rates amongst those children and staff?

I haven't heard of any outbreaks relating to them, but

They are going to have to change / modify the gcses summer 2021.

It just seems to me that the people with the lowest mental and emotional resilience are making the most noise and are being listened to, regardless of what is safe or not.

I think this is one of the meanest comments I've read on Mumsnet for some time and that's saying something.

It's not even grounded in reality. The most vulnerable (many of whom are in fact highly resilient people because that vulnerability comes from them having experienced lots of difficult things in life and survived them) have been struggling from the word go with lockdown. We still locked down, didn't we? I don't know about where you live but here we've seen an increase in suicides and there is stuff in the news about huge rises in psychosis and mental health crises. Despite the ways the most vulnerable might have been suffering, despite the fact that is worsening as the weeks go by, the government has taken its time and opened things up very cautiously. And things have moved slowly even though cases have continued to fall significantly week on week.

We have good evidence about what is 'safe' with regards this virus. Although is anything ever 100% safe? Schools certainly weren't before this virus. Accidents and abuse happens at school all the time and other illnesses spread there, some of them serious ones. We know schools have opened across Europe without triggering a second wave. It seems increasingly unlikely based on the evidence available that children spread the virus particularly. We know if they do get ill (or their teachers) they are generally low risk and will only feel mildly ill. We have a population that is better educated about the importance of hand washing.

I can't see any evidence that anyone is stamping their foot and going 'I've had enough' and the government is going, 'right then. Killer virus on the loose but let's get back to business because Anna Rogers over there is feeling a bit upset and I hear Amy Smith is feeling bored.' If people were still dying in high numbers and local outbreaks were happening here there and everywhere, I would be joining in with saying it's not workable for schools to go back. As it is, they need to. Many children being kept at home are at far more risk of being harmed than by this virus.

Over 2 months away, I genuinely believe schools will be able to open as normal by then. Cases will be lower. The risk will be minimal. Bubbles won't really work in secondary and won't be worth the hassle.

A statement of intention is fine.
But telling parents xyz WILL happen isn't useful. The blame when it isn't feasible then is at the schools door and hence we have dozens in MN threads blaming teachers and schools.

It's been like it from the start:

Schools are remaining open.
No, now they're closing.
There's a suspension to the curriculum.
There will be a state provision of remote learning.
Oh schools need to be accepting these child in, but it'll be in hubs.
Actually some will be in schools with their normal school staff.
These restrictions will be needed in school.
Now they won't (as it's not feasible)
You can open to these new year groups.
But actually you need these SD neasures in place.
Actually no that doesn't work either, so no SD needed in primary.
No masks for staff.
Actually no, they can wear them in these situations or if they want.
All children will be back by this date.
Ohwait, that doesn't work - so scrap that idea.
Summer catch ups will happen.
Money for catch up to go to schools in September for certain groups
Summer schools will happen then they won't.
Holiday live could happen. Then nothing heard of ever again.

And on and on it goes.

And that's just the stuff in the news. The guidance documents themselves have changed even more times. Think it had changed more than 40 times between the government stating widening of reopening for y1, r and y6 and the actual 1 June date. It's even more since the .

And the trouble is most parents only see the initial statements and when their child's school can't do what's been asked and still follow the guidance the teachers end up in the firing line.

Go back over the threads since March. I have never hidden so many threads ever in my 17 years of using MN. All of them accusing teachers of being lazy, sitting doing nothing, and basically just having a bash at teachers throughout.

Teachers have very little, and often NO, say in what they are to do. School leaders make decisions based on advice and instructions from the Government, the LEA, academy trusts and governors.

The blame on the whole is misdirected.
We should be blaming the Government for their headline statements with no back up, no real plans and just no substance.

They are going to have to change / modify the gcses summer 2021.

And A levels, BTecs, etc.

Those year 10s and 12s should be a major priority education-wise in this coming year. Something has got to happen to help them, but it's never even mentioned in the media these days.

We have time to help those in younger years to catch up and adapt.
The time for the year 10 and 12s is limited. I really feel for them, it must be a very stressful situation. My friends children are in both these years and in so many ways they are going to be affected more than children and teens in other years, including those in year 11 and 13 (like my own dd.)

We are not prepared to risk our kids because some teenagers are not sticking to social distancing.

I mean this kindly when I say, do you let your children go in cars? Do you let them go swimming or run around outdoors? Do you send them for sleepovers?

Teenagers are at higher risk from many other things which parents give no thought to every day. We now have data from countries all over the world and from millions of people and know that in terms of teenagers and fatality rates, you only likely have anything to worry about if your child has serious health problems already. If you are in that situation your child will be shielding now and if they are really seriously affected by their health, they shouldn't be in school until we know a bit more or have a vaccine (and deserves lots of support in terms of managing the next few months/years but that's a different thread.)

Are your kids possibly still at risk from potentially getting ill and having some complications from this virus? There is a small chance. But we aren't saying all cars have to drive at 20mph and no one can ever get in a plane again and no one should ever do more than walk - definitely no contact sports ever again. Let's get rid of all alcohol too and ban all junk food outright and remove knives from our kitchen drawers. Life involves a lot of risk when you break it down. We have to be balanced and say for the vast majority of teenagers they are going to come to more harm being out of school and protected in a bubble at home.

@Bookoffacts
They are going to have to change / modify the gcses summer 2021

I'm a parent of a year 10 ds and am hopeful that if they all go back full time in September they can just about get things back on track for GCSEs and A'Levels.

The thing is with the GCSEs and A levels though is That the curriculum is already incredibly tight with many subjects taught the content right up until the end. They'll have had 14 weeks (I think we are just finishing week 10) of missed lessons. I know some schools have done full timetables but most haven't. Most have had a mix and I'd imagine there are some who have had far less than they would have had. And the. It's how many pupils have engaged with the remote learning - because they haven't bothered right through to they simply aren't able too.

I can't see how schools can make up those 14 weeks of potentially missed learning without a massive impact in children's results.

I know that grades boundaries change etc but that can't just be the answer due to the inequalities being even more greatly widened this year.