To ask what is wrong with this cow

[SHAR0N]

This dairy cow belongs to the farmer in the next village and it looks very ill. Should I report it to the RSPCA?

I know nothing about cows or farming and don’t want to cause trouble if it’s normal. But I don’t want to ignore it if the animal is suffering.

Malnutrition.

Honestly, if anyone wants to find out more about dairy farming, I would be cautious about taking the words of farmers at face value. This is their livelihood and they are unlikely to be objective about it. It is also a multi billion pound industry in this country with some powerful supporters.

I’m not saying that some individual farmers try their best but essentially, they animals are there to make money from. And they want to sell you a product, so of course they are going to be biased.

I’m not objective, because - disclaimer - I think it’s a horrendous industry (although at least I don’t have money in the debate) but to counter out the previous post, here are some other sources:

www.viva.org.uk/dark-side-dairy/dairy-industry-britain

“Dairy cow milk yield (the amount of milk a cow produces) has increased from an average of 3,750 litres per cow per year (12 litres/21 pints per day) in the 1970s (5) to 7,445 litres (24.5 litres/42 pints per day) in 2012 (1). There has beenan almost eight per cent (530 litres per cow) increase in the average yield per cow per year just between 2007 and 2012 (1)”

“The unnatural physical demands placed on modern dairy cows result in a large number of the national dairy herd being killed every year due to lameness, mastitis (udder infection) and infertility. In most high production herds, cows are worn out and sent for slaughter before their fourth lactation – at only five years old (5) – when they can naturally live to be at least 20”

Farmers want you to believe that cows are happily out in the fields all year, this is not the case in all farms - there is an increase in zero-grazing dairy farms. The cows are indoors the whole year, every year.

www.ad-international.org/farm_animals/go.php?id=120

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/30/dairy-scary-public-farming-calves-pens-alternatives

Dairy is terrible for the environment. All plant based milks are better for the environment.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth

“analysis shows that while meat and dairy provide just 18% of calories and 37% of protein, it uses the vast majority – 83% – of farmland and produces 60% of agriculture’s greenhouse gas emissions”

www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46654042

Essentially, it causes suffering, it’s terrible for the environment and the fact is, ITS COMPLETELY AVOIDABLE. Switch to plant based milk and you aren’t contributing to cows being separated from their calves, you aren’t contributing to cows being forced into producing milk until exhaustion and resulting early death, and you aren’t contributing more greenhouses gases than you need to, to have a cup of tea or bowl of cereal.

to counter-act the previous post - was that my post, Swiftier ?

If welfare was as bad as your sources suggest, there would simply be no business. The profit margains in dairy are so slight, you need good cow health. Vet bills are expensive. Lost animals are expensive. Grass is cheap. The most successful models for uk dairy business are outdoor fed, healthy cows.

Why try and counter-act my suggestion that people simply visit farms and educate themselves about food production in the uk? What are you worried they will find out? That Vegan propaganda is just that?

Can we all just remember that the biggest cause of climate change is the burning of fossil fuels? Cars, planes, power plants...

And pasture is much, much better for all forms of wildlife than crop monocultures, which trash the soil into the bargain.

@EffYouSeeKaye yes your post, I’m providing the other side - what the farmers might not want people to see. By all means suggest to people they go to open farm days (keeping in mind only certain types of farms might want to to this) - what turned me vegan was visiting a relative who runs a dairy farm and being so uncomfortable with it all.

Great post swiftier

Ah that’s a shame, @Swiftier, I’m genuinely sorry to hear that. But you must follow your feelings and, as I said, nobody who is uncomfortable with the realities of dairy farming should buy dairy.

I’m absolutely comfortable with the realities and practices on our farm. Sleep like a log at night (apart from the hot flushes 😆) and really enjoy belonging to a wider farming community of amazingly dedicated, principled professionals who work incredibly hard to put food on our plates.

I’m very curious as to what you mean by ‘certain types of farm’?

Anyway. Everyone can make up their own minds. I’d love more people to visit farms or county shows and the like and really learn about the uk food industry. Absolutely everyone I meet is always curious and love visiting us. I am always very depressed at the abundance of ignorance (which is what prompted my original post here - eg: give her an apple or something!!!) and I do think it’s incumbent on farmers to do our bit to help dispel the myths.

So, if you are reading this with an open mind, please do what you can to broaden your knowledge about uk farming with first-hand experience, you really can’t beat (or deny) it. There’s so much to be proud of.

Hope you reported it! Please let us know.

Yep, I've been asking this too....

Just a note on plant based products being better for the environment please do some reading on non human edible to human edible. A lot of the land in the uk is unsuitable for growing crops, this is the land animals generally graze and it more often than not comes out carbon neutral or actually carbon negative. I agree animal agriculture is not necessarily great for the environment but a lot of the data is based on huge intensive farms where cows are in a shed and fed grain (which humans could eat) rather than grass based systems which are more typical of the UK.
I agree if you don't feel comfortable with dairy don't eat it I don't wish to force an opinion on anyone I just feel its important people see both sides of the story and not just heavily dramatised propaganda from either side.

@EffYouSeeKaye I don’t think it’s fair to assume that those who are in opposition to dairy farming are coming from a place of ignorance. @Swiftier has provided several sources to support their claims (and I have done the same further up thread).

It’s not a question of who is right and who is wrong. It’s a question of each person’s priorities, attitude to animals, and moral stance. Some people are absolutely fine with calves being separated from their mothers, young male calves being killed (for meat or otherwise), cows being selectively bred for higher milk production, milk being collected for human consumption instead of being used by the calves, the environmental impact, etc. There’s no factual basis on which anybody who is pro-dairy can assert ‘all of those things are absolutely fine and don’t cause any harm’. The fact is, these factors exist - all that’s up for debate it how people feel about them.

I grew up in a farming community. My best friend’s family had a dairy farm and I helped show cows with her in my teens. And that was a good farm, with pastured cows who were well looked after. I know what good dairy farming practices look like. But regardless, I can’t live with myself contributing to an industry which I consider to be fundamentally cruel, exploitative and environmentally disastrous. That doesn’t make me ignorant. It just means my priorities and viewpoint are different to yours.

And I think the reality is that a lot of people don’t know what is behind a lot of dairy production. Nobody in my family knew that male dairy calves are often killed, and they didn’t want to hear it when I told them (despite them asking me why I wasn’t consuming dairy any more). They wanted to live in ignorance of the uncomfortable side, because it’s easier that way. As you say, if people can’t make peace with the reality they shouldn’t eat dairy, but many people make peace with it by refusing to think about it and pretending the upsetting side doesn’t exist. That’s why I sometimes feel compelled to discuss it on places like Mumsnet. I became a vegan because other people took the time to show me what I was paying for when I consumed animal products, and my life is so much happier, my health so much better, and my conscience so much clearer, as a result. If I can share that experience with others, I will.

I agree animal agriculture is not necessarily great for the environment but a lot of the data is based on huge intensive farms where cows are in a shed and fed grain (which humans could eat) rather than grass based systems which are more typical of the UK.

The origin of your food (i.e. whether it is locally sourced or not) is virtually irrelevant from an environmental perspective compared to what that food actually is.

This is a really good graphic which shows just how small a percentage of the overall carbon footprint of a food product is attributable to transport: ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local

This article explains how even avocados, one of the least environmentally friendly vegan foods, still produces 46x less carbon than an equivalent quantity of lamb: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/revealed-the-enormous-carbon-footprint-linked-to-eating-avocado-a3591501.html%3famp

A lot of the worldwide environmental impact of beef and dairy comes from crop production to make animal feed, which is less of an issue with british dairy, because cows here are more likely to be pasture raised. But even where that’s true, the brown strip of the bar chart in that graphic shows just how much of the emissions that are generated by cows are the result of them being cows, rather than what they eat etc.

@EffYouSeeKaye are you in the south by any chance?

SadSisters is that data based on using the GW* metric for methane?

SadSisters I'd also say I agree with a lot of your post. I work with farmers and have been on an awful lot of farms talking about environmental management.
I think it could only be a good thing if more people were aware of the reality of food production - there would be quite a lot of people who would then reduce their meat and dairy consumption, but there would also hopefully be a lot of people who would take steps to actually put their money where their mouth is and support high-welfare nature-friendly farming.
Which in the UK is something we are very good at.
People DO turn a blind eye to the way in which our food is produced, and the government with their cheap food drive doesn't help that at all We need better support of top-quality farming.
I'd also suggest that people need a lot more education on how plant-based food is produced too - the impact on soil, climate, wildlife and water resources is huge so again, supporting ethical food production is vital even if you are vegan.
I'm quite happy to continue to eat meat and dairy - I just use my buying power to support farms I think are good.

Hi @SadSisters

Sorry I think you’ve misunderstood me there. I’m not in any way suggesting that people who do not share my viewpoint are ignorant. I’m referring to the general level of ignorance about uk farms and farm animals - the example I gave was a pp who suggested that cows eat apples. Another had referred to the photo of the cow, clearly with udders, as ‘he’. They were on page 1 of this thread I think. So many people I talk to have no idea that a cow must first have a calf to produce milk - there’s another example. People are always curious but the starting point about where our food comes from for non-farmers is a very low bar, generally.

I do think, for a balanced education, you can’t beat visiting farms or possibly county shows. You won’t learn everything you need to know from the internet, particularly if you only look at vegan websites. That wouldn’t be balanced, would it? Look at both types of online source, if you can’t physically get yourself to a farm.

This is a good website, for starters:

www.thisisdairyfarming.com/

Hi @Woodmarsh, why would you ask that?

@EffYouSeeKaye in general there a more grazing system herds in the south than north of the country so I was just curious

The vegan propaganda always amuses me with its inaccuracies and the emotive use of the words "baby calf"

@effyouseekaye

I haven’t just linked to vegan sources, although I have no issue with any source if I can see the studies / data on which the claims are based. I certainly don’t consider farmers / farming organisations to be less biased sources of information, given that their entire livelihood depends on public perception of the industry. I think you have to really assess the source material for any claim, and consider the vested interests behind it, before you can rely on it.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

There is an explanation of the source data underneath the infographic (you have to zoom in on a phone, but it’s easier to read on a computer screen)

Hi @SadSisters I didn’t say you had? Sorry if you feel that way.

@effyouseekaye I was responding to you saying ‘You won’t learn everything you need to know from the internet, particularly if you only look at vegan websites.’

Hi @Woodmarsh - that’s interesting! But no, we aren’t in the south. We are also part of a huge group of farmers in our region who all operate outdoor grazing, grass based systems. It’s what has kept us in business, to be honest, with milk prices as they are. I don’t know anyone who keeps their cattle in sheds year round, actually. I know some do, of course, but they feel like the minority to me.

Hi @SadSisters - well, you won’t. I stand by that. I didn’t say that’s what you had done.

OK thank you. It doesn't use the latest scientific research for the climate footprint of livestock methane emissions, which significantly reduces the footprint of farms - see here for more info www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/news/2018-news-climate-pollutants-gwp/
It also includes the impact of land conversion for beef farming, which is obviously hugely significant globally, but largely irrelevant for UK farming.
I agree that globally, producing food has a huge environmental impact. I'm saying the devil is in the detail, it is about choice and method. So tarring all beef & dairy production with the same brush is not helpful for people wanting to make ethical choices.

The op posted, with pictures, her concerns about a particular cow. Several posters have answered the question in her thread title "ring the RSPCA"

I've rather hijacked the thread, I apologise, I'm taking my hobby horse off elsewhere.