To wonder whether office work environment will change?

[Cam2020]

Once we are all back in offices and things are relatively 'normal', will anything really change?

I'm in two minds. On the one hand, people have got used to working from home and mangers may trust employees to get on with it where they might have had doubts before and allow some more flexible working; people will initially be more mindful of not coming into work when they're sick - but will these good intentions last? I have a feeling once we're back in the swing of things they'll fly out the window. What do people think?

I think the impact on cities could be huge, especially the centres. Commercial landlords will lose out, as will chains like Pret, also public transport.

I'm not sure if we're ready for a big shift. I think it could be the start of something.

It could also affect house prices. Say you work in London but from now on, you only have to go in to the office once a week, why buy an expensive London flat when you could have a house with more space and a garden in the Midlands or North.

I hope it leads to much more flexible blended approach to working. Some time at home combined with some time in the office now we have proved it is doable and can be trusted to make this work.

It depends on the management, I know at my workplace the department manager isn't keen on it and will not easily agree to more flexible working. I don't know why but I suspect that covid hasn't changed their views . They're just waiting to be able to get back to the old normal.

@JaneBofCartmel Cos if you lose your job, you would have to find a new job which would probably not pay as well in the Midlands or the North? Then you have to find another wfh job, which may limit job opportunities, not good in this economy!

My DH works for an investment bank and they are experimenting going back to work even now during lockdown with trials. So its not like the big companies have given up completely on office working. And as for the companies who do, for example, facebook has said they would align your salary with your location. I mean, maybe for families with 3 or more children, it may pay to accept a salary cut as the increased pay is unlikely to be able to pay for increased housing prices. But lower pay (with a bigger house) would also mean lower pension, less ££ to pay for stuff like university fees.

I work in a university and the Dean, who has always pooh-poohed home working has completely changed his outlook on it. He says the university is now adopting a plan where home working will be the default for the next two years, with a maximum of 30% of staff on site on a rotational basis.

I’ve enjoyed wfh and would be happy being on campus twice a week to break it up a bit.

I’m hoping that this will change our ways of working. I think it will be challenging for businesses though, as lots of people would love to WFH 5 days a week while others hate WFH and would rather come into the office. I’m expecting that a lot of big businesses with large office spaces (like mine) will reduce office space, so that those who want to work in the office can do, and those who want to WFH regularly can.

A lot of it depends on your own opinion of remote working, I suppose. I love it and think I’ve been so much more productive. Not to mention the money I’ve saved on fuel, and the time I’ve saved. It’s so much better for the environment and traffic levels too!

My company have said we won’t be back in the office until September at the earliest, and that they are open to “more flexible ways of working” in the future. However, my manager despises it and would have us all back in the office tomorrow if she had her way!

I think it will change for the short term but in the long term it will go back to whatever is easiest and financially beneficial for companies and employers. Profit will always come first sadly.

@Desiringonlychild

You missed my point. I was responding to the OP asking if the Covid lockdown will bring about changes in the way we work.

If it becomes normal to only go into the office one day a week, and you lose your job then you just get another job where you only go into the office one day a week, because this is what has become normal. You also said "not good in this climate" well, we're talking about when we return to normal, what would that normal look like.

I also said that I don't think we are ready for a big, sudden shift but it might be the start of something. Not many people will make long term decisions based on conditions during the lockdown (ie working from home full time) but people will be watching and seeing what the long term impact if this is and then making decisions.

Defensive much? Guessing you own a flat in London and don't want it to drop in price.

@JaneBofCartmel actually it's better for me if more people leave London as it would mean the £800k -1 million house in my neighborhood becomes cheaper even if my flat (£400k) also drops in value. As it is, it is almost impossible for trade up without inheritance..

I don't actually think the economy would recover for many years. So it wouldn't be 'normal'. I don't regard 20% unemployment as normal! We are looking at 10-20% unemployment and stagnated growth like in 2008..of course this may not mean a reduction in home working but it may mean that companies are in the driving seats with regards to working conditions. De

Most of my peers did move to the home counties even with 40-50 hours in the office. They just did the commute so I think there was always that trend due to London property being out of sync with incomes.

@Desiringonlychild

Not all are predicting 10-20% unemployment though. Recessions aren't all the same (and technically we aren't in one yet as we haven't had two consecutive quarters of negative growth). No one actually knows how this will play out - could be an L, a V or even a W.

It’s an interesting question OP and something I’ve wondered about.

Our office is reopening in July (with social distancing in place). The first cohort to go back will be those that can’t do 100% of their jobs from home and they will be split into groups and go in on different days.

I can do my job 100% from home, so I’ve been told not to expect to back in until September. Like others who do a similar job to me, I’ve done 2 days from home and 3 days in the office for a few years.

I think that my co are just hoping that by Sept / Oct the virus will have burned itself out and things will be back to pretty much normal.

However, I’ve spoken to friends who do other office type jobs and they have said that their companies are going to move to more of a work from home model.

I don’t think there will be a sudden change. Cities won’t be deserted like they were in April but more companies could need less office space. A lot of them will be tied into long commercial leases though. They won’t all suddenly move to smaller office spaces in the next few months. It’s likely to gradually happen.

I think the poster above is right to say that commercial landlords will be negatively affected. I think it will be gradual though for the reasons I mentioned. I also agree re the service sector economy- if 25% (Hypothetical figure) less people are travelling to work each day then it will have an impact on coffee and sandwich shops.

I think things will go back to normal eventually in offices, managers do not like WFH!

It depends what systems they use though.

Mine can see whether or not I’m online. They can also get a report through to say what time I logged on and off and see an outline of what I did. How long I used chrome for, what websites I visited, how long I used MS office etc.

We have systems that thoroughly check everything we do and we have to write a description for every 15 mins of every working day. There are timers on my screen that time every task and you can see when i'm online. My managers knows exactly what I have done every single day and there is no way to hide. But they are all white conservative men in their 50s who utterly despise working from home. So I have no doubt we'll be back to the office 5 days a week by winter.

My managers knows exactly what I have done every single day and there is no way to hide.

Mine do too but I work In quite a forward thinking sector. Guessing you’re in something like law or accountancy (which aren’t known for family friendly working practices).

I work in commercial property and have been following a lot of commentary on this. There's loads online from various sources and a lot of it is very positive. There does seem to be a line of thought that the changes we're about to see across the entire market (whether office, retail, leisure etc) were all happening anyway and Covid has just drastically accelerated the process. It's possible that we'll never go back to work in the same way as before but that's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll need to see how it evolves. PP mentioned certain groups losing out as a result but if investors, landlords, developers etc can respond quickly to market changes, know their target and recognise where demand is then there will definitely be opportunities to be had as well. Think it's a case of watch this space.

That's interesting. What do you think the opportunities for landlords, investors and developers will be?

I've already noticed a change on my high street, over the years, there are more bars, restaurants, take away and less shops.

Everyone in DH's department has had their jobs redefined. It was a Welfare Department (counselling, supporting staff through bereaverment etc), it's now a Business Management Department so DH's job is only a small portion of what he retrained for four years ago. He's in the office one day a week, he can easily work from home and fill a day - starts at 7.15/30am, finishes 5-6.15pm (he does have a couple of proper 20/30 mins breaks now and no travel, so he finds it's more relaxing). We've had to change the house around, and I'm sure he won't appreciate being in the coldest room in the house in winter

If firms decide everyone can work from home all the time, what is there to stop them outsourcing wfh jobs to cheaper labour overseas?

So many interesting perspectives and I think it definitely will vary between sectors and companies and whether individuals actually want more flexibility and on what terms.

There does seem to be a line of thought that the changes we're about to see across the entire market (whether office, retail, leisure etc) were all happening anyway and Covid has just drastically accelerated the process.

I think this really interesting. A lot of financial companies have been moving towards clear desk policies and increased WFH, to cut down on floor space and rent. I wonder whether those companies that are still resistent to flexibility out of mistrust, rather than practicality, will become less desirable places to work and eventually bow to pressure to attract talent?

I understand completely what a PP said about businesses dominated by middle aged men who don't approve of home working - I've worked for one of those businesses, myself!

I'm sure he won't appreciate being in the coldest room in the house in wintershock

That’s a good point (my WFH space is in the cold corner of the spare room) it’s been so warm since April that we haven’t needed the heating on, so haven’t noticed much of an increase in bills. WFH full time in the winter will mean an increase in bills, mainly from heating. So whilst working from home means less money on petrol, in the winter it might not be so lucrative from a cost save perspective.

@Ellmau the argument is that if you are very skilled, companies would want to pay your very high salary. However, there are skilled people in China and in India. There are countries like singapore where skilled professionals work 60 hour weeks and pay low tax (hence would keep more of their salary and can accept a lower salary even if the cost of living in singapore is high).

There would be winners and losers. More losers than winners probably.

If firms decide everyone can work from home all the time, what is there to stop them outsourcing wfh jobs to cheaper labour overseas?

This touches on something that was discussed on another thread. One of the reasons why managers may not want everyone working from home is because of rapport people can build up when they have face to face social interaction. For good teams to work well together, they have to know and trust each other. This comes from shared office experiences - something funny that you all saw happen at work, an annoying collage that bugs you all, the odd after work drink together.

I can imagine that many jobs will be outsourced overseas. Some NHS Trusts have outsourced audio typing. One of the Big 4 is outsourcing secretarial work. When I worked in the City, one of the banks was outsourcing remote PAs to Poland and our IT department and a huge amount of digital banking was in India. Accountancy and finance is ripe for it.

The armed forces are outsourcing training and education, it’ll be either a British or American company and still based in the UK. For now. Loads of civil servants will be TUPEd over to Babcock or Raytheon.

I imagine my current job (civil service) is okay as they only recruit British nationals and I have security clearance.

@FluffyKittensinabasket not great for the tax base/civil service if so many people end up unemployed! I think it was already happening, a lot of people's jobs were going to be obsolete because of AI. Remote work is going to accelerate it though; a combination of remote work/outsourcing to cheaper countries and AI would mean a lot of middle class and lower middle class people are jobless. It could either mean austerity or a seriously left wing government gets into power and guarantees UBI.