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A response to JK Rowling

966 replies

Hjft · 11/06/2020 09:54

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

  • [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]
OP posts:
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PumbaasCucumbas · 11/06/2020 10:57

I switched off at poly juice or whatever, sorry.

Graffitiqueen · 11/06/2020 10:58

OP, you are incredibly naive and need to do some more investigation into this topic.

A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man. How do we tell who's a genuine transwoman and who's just masquerading when it's all in their head?

Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. Stonewall is pushing for exactly this. people have lost their jobs for saying sex is real and sex and gender are not the same thing.

DappledOliveGroves · 11/06/2020 10:58

So - how do you tell the difference between a 'genuine' transwoman and someone using a trans identity for nefarious means? Both are men; both look the same; both have penises. Yet one, apparently, is a 'real' woman and the other a sexual predator, and someone we are supposed to know how we tell the difference?

Secondly, most of the TRAs reject any notion of gender dysphoria as a prerequisite to a trans identity. So whilst I have sympathy for those suffering from dysphoria, the trans umbrella is now so wide that anyone can identify as a woman, no dysphoria required, and we have to suck it up?

No thanks.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 11/06/2020 10:58

This is where there is misunderstanding and conflation of sex and gender.

Naw, it’s you that’s conflating sex and gender OP.

Single SEX spaces are for female people, gender has nothing to do with it.

If transmen don’t want to use female spaces that is their choice, but no should ever people should be granted access because their SEX is not female, regardless of what their gender expression is.

CrazyToast · 11/06/2020 10:59

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’.

The definition of 'conflate' is to combine two different things into one You quote her saying that sex and gender are different because one will replace the other. So she isn't conflating them. She is saying sex and gender are different and one cannot replace the other.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 11/06/2020 10:59

*no male people should be granted access.

Thesuzle · 11/06/2020 10:59

All that Mouthbreathingrage said.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 11/06/2020 10:59

Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender

My gender identity was forced upon me by a patriarchal society that determined that 'femininity' was pleasing to the dominant sex, the male sex.

I know I am a woman. I do reject my gender identity though because it is part of my oppression.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 11/06/2020 11:00

I have shortish hair, I am not wearing make up, I can’t remember the last time I wore a skirt - what is my gender? Gender is an artificial set of social constructs designed impose external roles on the biological sexes.
The only reality is biology, everything else is a transient social construct.
The problem is that you are conflating gender stereotypes with actual reality.

How are you defining women, if not by biology?

Melia100 · 11/06/2020 11:00

Thanks, Prodigal.

HappyMealWithLegs · 11/06/2020 11:00

socially female

What does this mean?

Pertella · 11/06/2020 11:01

The person you describe has a penis (sex male), but is suffering debilitating gender dysphoria gender female).

Dysphoria is not a requirement of being trans. In fact, saying so is considered transphobic by the TRAs.

Sorry OP, welcome to the TERF club - if you could just queue over there, someone will be along soon to choke you with their lady dick soon and then piss on your corpse.

Sorry for the inconvenience - so many TERFs, not enough lady dicks.

Collidascope · 11/06/2020 11:03

She's conflating sex and gender??

No, trans activists did that when they decided that woman no longer meant "adult human female" but someone with a "womanly gender identity", whilst still wanting to keep sex-based rights for these new male people who were going to opt into the new definition. That's where the conflation happened, and it was entirely deliberate.

JellyfishandShells · 11/06/2020 11:05

The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman

But he is masquerading as a woman - to himself if he really believes himself to be a woman (thus disphoria) and to others by dressing in what he believes to be a feminine way. It is a masquerade, however you frame it and it is not an 'authentic' identity.

Aesopfable · 11/06/2020 11:05

Transwomen are men and commit crime at the same rate as other men. Half of Transwomen in prison are there for sex offences.

LastTrainEast · 11/06/2020 11:06

So after all that OP you didn't listen to a word that was said either.

"A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man" A man is the only person able to get recognised as a transwoman.

Though that may end soon as if we do away with definitions of sex then no one will be able to say they are 'in the wrong body'. Trans-activists will have erased their own claims.

TheRattleBag · 11/06/2020 11:06

Freddy McConnell, the famous seahorse parent has a GRC. When getting a GRC you have to have lived in your acquired gender for 2 years, and state that you intend to carry on in that gender for the rest of your life.

Despite that, Freddy McConnell (female to male transition) became pregnant and gave birth.

Short of wearing stilettos and red nail varnish all the time, I don't know what can be more female than giving birth.

I confess I'm not exactly sure how the timeline worked in Freddy's case, and there's a chance the GRC was granted after giving birth. But it's only 2020 now and Freddy gave birth in 2018, so I don't think there has been chance to live as a male for 2 years since. Also, Freddy has not ruled out giving birth again....

Is Freddy really male? I don't think so.

I think that the vast majority of people (on here and in the real world) would back up Desertserges's statement above:

I have the utmost sympathy for anyone with gender dysphoria and absolutely believe that transpeople should have legal protection and their own spaces. I do not for a moment feel that these should be allowed to erode women's rights, safety, and the very definition of 'woman'.

Of course this works the other way too, in terms of protecting female to male transtioners, though they seem to be overlooked by the shoutiest voices in all this. Funny that....

Tianalia · 11/06/2020 11:07

If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection.

I don't expect anyone to accept medical intervention if they don't want to. But then what makes a transwomen any different from a biological male? Physically they will be the same. Their sexed bodies are the same. And women's spaces are segregated by sex to keep women safe. Why should women throw open the doors to these people who are in everyway (aside from a socially constructed personal identity)a male?

CrazyToast · 11/06/2020 11:07

This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology.

The legal definition of sex is 'the physical difference between male and female in animals'. This definition is rooted in biology. To change the definition to that of gender (ie social presentation or how you 'feel') is to remove biology from the table. Therefore to replace the meaning of 'sex' with the meaning of 'gender' has bearing on biology----it erases biology in legal terms. This may benefit some trans people. But legal acknowlegement of female biology is relevant in terms of single sex spaces, pregnancy/childbirth protections, discrimination protections based on pregnancy & assumptions about physical capability, rape etc. Take that away, remove those protections for females.

CrocodileFrock · 11/06/2020 11:07

"An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong."

Will you also be willing to consider that you could be wrong?

And why the emphasis on the GRC, when we all know that we aren't allowed to even ask someone whether they have one, and certainly aren't allowed to ask for proof even if someone tells us that they do have one?

Aesopfable · 11/06/2020 11:10

permanently living in a female role

What is a ‘female role’?

Hjft · 11/06/2020 11:10

@FFSFFSFFS

She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is

A transwoman is no more or no less a potential predator than any other male born person.

Male born people as a class are excluded from single sex spaces because any male is a potential threat. Why should tranwomen be treated differently?

Male born people are not excluded from single sex spaces except by exception specified the equalities act.

If someone is not causing trouble, and just going about their business, they they can legally use the facilities that are most suitable for them. They cannot however legally use the accessible facilities unless they need them.

Changing this convention would forcing big burley transmen to use the ladies toilets! Nobody wants that.

OP posts:
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 11/06/2020 11:12

Also, "the person you describe is blah blah" - do you know them? Every single one of them, and you asked them? And you know for sure that they told you the truth?

Presumably a potion of some sort was involved.

CaveMum · 11/06/2020 11:12

If it’s not at all possible to gain a GRC under false pretences and the system is totally infallible, then how did Freddie McConnell get one? Because last time I checked having IVF and giving birth is not part of “living as a man”.

When you are given a GRC you are required to affirm that you will live in your “new gender”. Certainly didn’t happen in that case.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 11/06/2020 11:12

Male born people are not excluded from single sex spaces except by exception specified the equalities act.

If someone is not causing trouble, and just going about their business, they they can legally use the facilities that are most suitable for them. They cannot however legally use the accessible facilities unless they need them

No, this is Stonewall’s interpretation of the law.