A response to JK Rowling

[Hjft]

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

• [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]

And surely if you are both right - that one of you has wonderful experiences of males and would be delighted to use mixed sex spaces without this causing loss of anything important, and the other of you does not have wonderful experiences and would very much dread using mixed sex spaces while this causes them loss of things they find significantly important -

Which one of you should the two of you see as more important to hear and protect as a woman?

@michelle no actually I struggled to understand the point you were making in your post which is why I didn't respond at all.
And I believe that the poster I responded to did actually post an accusatory post of which I was responding to. Please again don't misunderstand me when I say I think if someone has me wrong it's not unreasonable to point this out.
Maybe re read. I said that the poster didn't agree with me & although this doesn't bother me, I take umbrance at being undermined just because I don't want to agree with said poster.
I'm also not advocating that anyone is 'right' or 'wrong' about shared or same sex spaces. I am simply expressing an opinion of which should be safe to do so without fearing lashback.
This began with Rowling view which I don't prescribe to. Why should I feel compelled to agree when I don't?
And I did not say that I was delighted to share space only that it doesn't bother me. I'd rather that you don't misrepresent.

My apologies. Do let me correct this:

And surely if you are both right - that one of you has positive experiences of males and would not mind using mixed sex spaces without this causing loss of anything important, and the other of you does not have positive experiences and would very much mind using mixed sex spaces while this causes them loss of things they find significantly important -

Which one of you should the two of you see as more important to hear and protect as a woman?

Chocolate I am sorry you have had such a horrible experience and I understand how that can alter your perspective.

However I asked you a specific question about other women, and you turned the answer back to your own perspective, and demonstrated no empathy.

If you know that some, if not most, women are frightened of male violence (not constantly, but in such a way that their decisions about what to wear or where to go are affected) why would you disregard that?

You said that women and girls should “be aware”. They are aware, yet you would stop them having their own spaces away from people with functioning penises. Why is that?

You prioritise the feelings of transwomen over women and girls. Why?

And I feel like you're spectacularly missing the point. This is about the rights of Trans women? Nothing really to do with what someone like me believes, wants or cares about. The debate is about women such as hold the views expressed above, & those women who are trans individuals who want to -are recognised in law as women & want to use women's toilets etc.
This is not between 'me' as someone who doesn't particularly mind sharing shared space & woman who doesn't want to share mixed space. This is about rights of Trans women v rights of other women.

I sometimes struggle with figures of speech. What is umbrance?

@Chocolate50

Genuine question. Do you think I am transphobic to want only a female doctor to perform intimate examinations on me due to my experience as a rape victim?

I'm aware you've said a number of times you don't have the fears and ptsd some rape victims do, so I understand you wouldn't feel how I do. I'm asking if you think I am transphobic for only wanting a female doctor to do that?

I love men, I have lots of wonderful men in my life and always have. Unfortunately due to my past experience of rape I do not want anyone other than a natal female to perform intimate examinations on me.

I do not hate men. I do not assume they are all attackers. I am not a man phobe. I do not want a male doctor for that kind of treatment.

I do not hate trans women. I do not assume they are all attackers. Not all trans women are attackers. I am not a trans phobe. I do not want a trans woman doctor for that kind of treatment.

Do you honestly think that there is any benefit to me not being able to request a female doctor only?

This is about rights of Trans women v rights of other women.

Yes.

Your position seems to be that TW should win this conflict and female rights should be sacrificed to this aim?

**If you know that some, if not most, women are frightened of male violence (not constantly, but in such a way that their decisions about what to wear or where to go are affected) why would you disregard that?

• I DON'T KNOW THIS & FEEL THAT THIS IS IN ANY CASE A VERY ONE SIDED PERSPECTIVE.

You said that women and girls should “be aware”.
-I TALKING ABOUT SAFEGUARDING YOURSELF IN THE WAY THAT WE ALL DO AGAINST ANY RISK OR DANGER FROM ANYONE THAT MIGHT CAUSE US AN ISSUE. FOR EXAMPLE IF I WAS WALKING DOWN THE STREET & IT WAS DARK, I SAW A PERSON WALKING TOWARDS ME, I MAY CHOOSE TO CROSS OVER. THIS WOULD BE POSITIVE DISCRIMINATION & ABOUT BEING CAREFUL. THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT WHEN REFERRING TO AWARENESS.
They are aware, yet you would stop them having their own spaces away from people with functioning penises. Why is that?
I HAVE SAID I AGREE WITH PEOPLE HAVING SAFE SPACES. I BELIEVE THAT IF SOMEONE IS A SEXUAL PREDATOR THEY WILL ABUSE ANYWAY. I DON'T AGREE THAT A SHARED CHANGING ROOM WILL GIVE MORE OR LESS OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO. THERE ARE BOTH MALE AND FEMALE PREDATORS AND I ALSO DON'T THINK THAT SOMEONE IS LIKELY TO NECESSARILY GO TO THE LENGTHS OF A GENDER TRANSITION TO ENABLE THEM TO ABUSE. THIS THINKING IS FAR FETCHED & WAAAY TOO MANY HOOPS TO JUMP THROUGH IN ORDER TO SECURE OUTCOME. EXTREME & RARE.

You prioritise the feelings of transwomen over women and girls. Why?
HOW?
I DON'T THINK THAT I HAVE DONE THIS. I'M SAYING THAT TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN, I RECOGNISE THEM AS EQUAL TO OTHER WOMEN. I THINK THAT THEY HAVE THAT RIGHT.

I'M SORRY THAT YOU DON'T FEEL THAT I'VE EXPRESSED EMPATHY FOR WOMEN, HOWEVER ACTUALLY I AM A WOMAN AND SO WITH THAT IN MIND THANK YOU FOR ASKING & HEARING MY VIEWS.

PS additional means "as well as" not "instead of". HTH

This is about rights demands of transwomen v rights of other women.

Transwomen currently have the same rights as everyone else (including the rights to access single sex spaces of their sex (men). They are demanding women give up their rights, and are trying to compel others to deny reality.

choc what would you do about single sex provision?

Would you make everything/some things openly mixed sex?

Would you make everything/some things available to some members of the opposite sex only?

For example we already normally waive single sex rules for changing rooms w.r.t. children under 8yo.

Would you create a waiver for people of the opposite sex if they say they feel like they are really the opposite sex and so their mental health will suffer if not allowed to participate?

What would you do if you could change all the laws and rules today?

Big Gee -nice but I'm not going to respond to abusive style aggression.

You just did

chocolate the only one sided perspective is yours in my opinion.

You state you are not afraid of men, women should take action to safeguard themselves, you are happy to use a mixed space. Great for you.

Now what women's rights do is protect all women, regardless of their own opinion if life experiences.

TRA's don't want a third space, they want women's spaces. Women's spaces where some women are very uncomfortable for both personal and religious reasons. Now I also have none of these concerns, but I can think outside my own box to understand that others take issue. Therefore the status quo shouldn't be changed at all, because to do so dosa franchises other women's. I'd rather put the safety and respect of 50% of the population over the minority in this case. I wouldn't want my Muslim friend unable to come swimming with me because her husband bans her from going just incase she sees another penis.

@Chocolate50

And I feel like you're spectacularly missing the point. This is about the rights of Trans women? Nothing really to do with what someone like me believes, wants or cares about. The debate is about women such as hold the views expressed above, & those women who are trans individuals who want to -are recognised in law as women & want to use women's toilets etc. This is not between 'me' as someone who doesn't particularly mind sharing shared space & woman who doesn't want to share mixed space. This is about rights of Trans women v rights of other women.

What should a natal male have to do to become recognised in the eyes of the law as a woman?

I think most people on here would find it easier if there's some sort of process for that, rather than having to do nothing more than say you're female.

I ALSO DON'T THINK THAT SOMEONE IS LIKELY TO NECESSARILY GO TO THE LENGTHS OF A GENDER TRANSITION TO ENABLE THEM TO ABUSE. THIS THINKING IS FAR FETCHED & WAAAY TOO MANY HOOPS TO JUMP THROUGH IN ORDER TO SECURE OUTCOME. EXTREME & RARE.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases_by_country

www.nspcc.org.uk/what-is-child-abuse/types-of-abuse/grooming/

Long-term well planned approaches are the norm.

Predators absolutely will and do go to immense lengths to gain access to victims. "He's a pillar of the community"

I ALSO DON'T THINK THAT SOMEONE IS LIKELY TO NECESSARILY GO TO THE LENGTHS OF A GENDER TRANSITION TO ENABLE THEM TO ABUSE.

The point is that with self-ID, they won't need to.

Did you not understand that?

I ALSO DON'T THINK THAT SOMEONE IS LIKELY TO NECESSARILY GO TO THE LENGTHS OF A GENDER TRANSITION TO ENABLE THEM TO ABUSE. THIS THINKING IS FAR FETCHED & WAAAY TOO MANY HOOPS TO JUMP THROUGH IN ORDER TO SECURE OUTCOME. EXTREME & RARE.

And kinda missing the historical and readily available evidence to the contrary. Even I know my primary school teacher who ‘felt up’ the girls only had to go through a few years of teachers college. No real buggy I guess in relation to merely having to attend some doctors appointments and change gender indicators on your utilities bills. And who knows, pretty soon with amendments it will me not even that.

But please do miss the historical proof that predators DO indeed jump through hoops to get access to their victims.

THIS THINKING IS FAR FETCHED & WAAAY TOO MANY HOOPS TO JUMP THROUGH IN ORDER TO SECURE OUTCOME

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-rowling-right-that-hormones-or-surgery-not-required-for-legal-gender-change

Chocolate, what do you read to base your knowledge on or is it purely anecdotal?

You prioritise the feelings of transwomen over women and girls. Why?
HOW?
I DON'T THINK THAT I HAVE DONE THIS. I'M SAYING THAT TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN, I RECOGNISE THEM AS EQUAL TO OTHER WOMEN. I THINK THAT THEY HAVE THAT RIGHT.

That is interesting to me. How does this "equality" play out? Let's say prisons and athletics. How does being equal manifest in real life for those?

So, Chocolate. Third spaces good? Or third spaces bad?

I'm confused. What do you think a gender transition is, chocolate? People seem to be talking at cross purposes.

I DON'T THINK THAT I HAVE DONE THIS. I'M SAYING THAT TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN, I RECOGNISE THEM AS EQUAL TO OTHER WOMEN. I THINK THAT THEY HAVE THAT RIGHT.

One minority group does not have the right to remove the rights of another group. I don't care how people identify. It's up to them. But the reality is transwomen are not women, they are biological males. And they don't get to remove the rights women have in place to keep them safe from all biological males.