A response to JK Rowling

[Hjft]

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

• [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]

Not trying to undo sex.... that's exactly what is being attempted here, that's the reason female people are pissed off? That's as blatant a lie as 'there's no threat to sex based rights'.

You're doing the tango around reasons why females should just accept males in their spaces, lose all single sex spaces and shut up about it.

I'll ask again, as I ask repeatedly because no one ever answers this while they're trying to convince me that meeting the needs of poor males is my primary social function of existence and female people don't need or want rights anyway etc etc etc…

You appear to be into kindness and social justice and equality or you wouldn't be here. So what are you going to do with all the females who will no longer be able to access any space, and things like health care or refuges, in order that those born male can choose from both spaces for their better wellbeing?

I find some of these views really odd. I almost feel like I'm not allowed to say as a woman that actually my experience of men and women are very different than portrayed by the views on here.

The medium article keeps going on about how tired the author is. Isn't it awful when women don't instantly do as they are told? Men must not be tired Have pity wimmin. Do you mummies even know what it feels like to be tired? What it feels like to be ignored.

It read to me like the literary equivalent of Now I shall give a big dramatic sigh as I shuffle around wearing my dressing gown of doom while giving a side look to the woman to see if she is feeling bad for not agreeing to my demands yet. I might have to start slamming things soon if she continues being difficult.

@TorkTorkBam actually I don't really believe that stats are always reliable. I really don't.

You don't believe that people who run prisons can count inmates?

I find some of these views really odd. I almost feel like I'm not allowed to say as a woman that actually my experience of men and women are very different than portrayed by the views on here

I respect your views and beliefs, and your experiences, and I'm happy for your privilege of not understanding females whose experiences have not been as gentle and positive as yours.

If you could respect other people's views and beliefs, and think of possible solutions to this that involve those beliefs living happily side by side - like faiths do in the UK - there would be no issue and the FWR board would be averaging about three posts a week if that.

I almost feel like I'm not allowed to say as a woman that actually my experience of men and women are very different than portrayed by the views on here.

It is possible that you know a disproportionate number of abusive and violent women. Nobody can argue with that.

We can however point out that your experience is not typical, and refer to evidence that proves this.

I find some of these views really odd. I almost feel like I'm not allowed to say as a woman that actually my experience of men and women are very different than portrayed by the views on here.

I've not been subjected to FGM and it's perfectly reasonable for me to state it. However I do not try to pretend it doesn't happen and suggest the stats are unreliable simply because they don't reflect my personal experience.

Choc

Why would transwomen be any less dangerous than the average male? There is evidence that they keep male pattern offending.

That aside you seem to be saying that women are just as prone to violence and sexual violence as men. Which is bonkers. Absolutely bonkers.

Trans people aren't more likely to abuse than any other group.

There are no stats on the group of people included under the trans umbrella by Stonewall because that group is impossible to define and probably includes most of the population.

However, the concern is not trans people. The concern is men.

That's fine Chocolate50, of course you are able to say your experience differs.

But it is a shame that you are so unwilling to engage with statistics and fact (most of violence is male on female - there is no evidence that a bloke who dresses as a woman loses his affinity with the male population in terms of the statistics on violence) and admit that actually there are issues in balancing rights.

You know, we all have male friends, lovers, colleagues, sons. Some of us (myself included) know people who are transitioning and have no desire to oppress them - on the contrary, I do want to recognise them as their chosen gender in most scenarios, BUT not at the expense of spaces that provide shelter for women or which are designed to give them a leg up or recognise the different challenges facing them that those who have been brought up male do not face (women's sports, women in business awards etc).

I think that you come from a position of privilege as a woman who hasn't had cause to fear a man and you come across as lacking a bit in empathy for women who do. We still live in a world in which men have more power than women. Why do you need to think that, for example, a late transitioning male, who has had the benefit of male privilege for 40 years of his education, career etc is suddenly one of the most vulnerable people if he announces he wants to live as a woman? Is that bloke really more vulnerable than the refugee who has no assets and far fewer options?

[quote Chocolate50]@bluebluezoo but now you are using a few tweets to characterise a whole group of people? Which is unrealistic. There you've said 'they' as if this group is separated from the rest of the world. This is the way that racist people talk about other race 'they do this, they are like that'. It's a very unhelpful narrative.
In the same way as you are characterising women to think this or that.
As a woman (& I speak for myself only) I don't feel threatened by going into a mixed toilet. A lot of educational facilities now offer these as standard and there is a reason for this, because there is a need and because the world is progressing in this way.[/quote]
Women are entitled to single sex spaces for reasons of dignity, privacy and safety. Our foremothers had to fight for them and we're having to do it again.

We know it's not all me or not all transwomen. But as there's no easy way of telling whether or not a person is going to compromise safety then the easiest way of keeping women safe is to keep all male people out.

@Chocolate50

I find some of these views really odd. I almost feel like I'm not allowed to say as a woman that actually my experience of men and women are very different than portrayed by the views on here.

You personally might not have experienced much male violence, maybe you are very young, but surely you have noticed things like the MeToo movement and things like anti-rape campaigns that tell women to modify their behaviour to avoid getting raped because, hey, that's what men do? You have seen what happens to women and girls in less equal places than Europe? It's never the women in charge oppressing the poor men.

@backseatcookers @Melia100

At least old school misogynist are chauvinist arseholes who know they hate women and just don't care

Your wish came true courtesy of The Sun's headline this morning! Hurrah. However it doesn't feel as refreshing as I'd hoped.

@Chocolate50
If you have led such a charmed life that you feel comfortable in shared spaces that is fantastic. It really is. You are very fortunate. I hope many others feel the same.

I don’t. I feel unsafe in shared spaces. If shared spaces are all that is available I won’t be able to go places and do things.

Your experience doesn’t change mine just as my experience doesn’t change yours.

But your view is that something I have now should be taken away from me so a marginalised group of men feel more comfy. That isn’t ok with me. Those men need to be made to feel safe in spaces that don’t include me. And I’m thrilled you will help by sharing those spaces because you are what will make those marginalised men feel safe in those spaces.

But I’m not here to shield vulnerable men from violent men.

@nicenames no actually you are incorrect in your assumption of me. I just do not allow experience of either sex or gender to undermine the whole, or to blur my view or experience as a whole.
You come over as old school feminist which isn't an ideology I choose to engage with. This doesn't mean that I am not empathic as a person, I just don't agree with that particular narrative or choose to follow that pathway.
I believe that my views are valid, this doesn't mean that yours us not. But please don't misunderstand me when I say yes I have lived and understand what you are talking about. I just don't prescribe to it. And I think that should be ok actually.

@Chocolate50

I find some of these views really odd. I almost feel like I'm not allowed to say as a woman that actually my experience of men and women are very different than portrayed by the views on here.

I think maybe you appear entrenched in your view as you have posted a disingenuous piece as something that you say reflects your view and discount stats collected by the government about the inmates in their prison. Or do you know of skews that are not made clear in the collection? Certainly there will be in the future with tw stats being collected as women.

I would hugely doubt the bias in stats collected by someone like stonewall as they would reflect their very wide umbrella which may skew any data they give.

Is there a site you use for stats to back up your feeling of predators not going through long processes to have access to victims? What like my old primary school teacher who daily would run his hand across the girls chests that we all felt was wrong but did not know how to talk about how we felt. And thought each of us was alone in feeling that way. You mean like that?

Or like others have pointed out? Or is it that it is too painful to acknowledge that girls and women have put up with males taking long and complicated paths to secure victims.

I also recommend you watch GNC Centric videos on YouTube. Ben is very articulate about the abusive transwomen who ran the T group and one by one targeted the teenage teen boys (who were the only other members) and groomed them into sex because of ‘no kink shaming’. Yes, middle aged men having sex with underage girls. How prevalent it is, who knows.

But I’m not here to shield vulnerable men from violent men

This, in 30 foot high letters.

The problem is MALE VIOLENCE.

“I just want to feel safe”
ALL women want to feel safe at all times, regardless of where that is, at home, at work, in toilets and changing rooms, in schools, playing sports, absolutely everywhere.
It’s not a big ask one would think??? Apparently, it’s a huge monumental ask!!!!!
If every person (male born - who still has a penis), is allowed in female born - without a penis places, they represent a threat to the female born people.
Trans women/men should be actively pushing for a place where they can feel safe, that is not at the expense of the female born population, those who were born without a penis.
All people who were born without a penis are women, just women, not cis women, just women!!
Please let us have our own safe spaces without trying to muscle in on them. Advocate for your own space, leave ours alone, so women can enjoy their own spaces without fear. All women and girls, you know those people who weren’t born with a penis, should be able to relax and actually enjoy their own hard fought for spaces and feel safe.
It’s not a big ask.
Advocate for your own third space/gender neutral space. Most women would happily support you to do this, they value and need a safe place and understand the reasoning behind it.

& now I have a business to run (yes for those who somehow characterised that I'm someone who is so privileged that I do not have my own business, built only by myself!!! With no help from any man to be seen!!). So I'm stepping out of this to do so.

@Chocolate50
Your last post is confusing to me. It sounds like you are saying you don’t like the idea of being vulnerable as a woman so you reject that world view and lalalala there isn’t a problem. It feels like you are in denial of some sort. I’m not having a go at you. It genuinely confuses me. The post you are referring to talks about the prevalence of male violence. Are you trying to convince yourself that isn’t true because you haven’t seen or experienced it? Or because you have and this is a coping strategy?

I just do not allow experience of either sex or gender to undermine the whole, or to blur my view or experience as a whole.

I'm not sure what you mean here. The fact that you talk in terms of 'not allowing' implies a lack of sympathy for women who are not able to shrug off their experiences of male violence so easily.

More than that, the existence of 8 billion people on the planet is evidence of 8 billion times that women were not able to ignore the consequences of sex.

Yes the ‘not allowing’ reads to me as a determination not to be a victim.

@Chocolate50

Yes some women can be abusers and I think about that when I drop my child off at nursery although I wish I didn't.
That's why you don't get a free pass to work in school/childcare/healthcare/refuges/sports clubs etc just because you're a woman. You get DBS checked etc just like everyone else.
This would not be practical for public spaces such as toilets and changing rooms however so for the safety of all concerned the boundary is drawn somewhere - and its between the sexes for a very good reason as PP have provided some evidence for. We have grouped all men together even though most aren't predators.
If the boundary is changed to whoever people identify as and that is based on what they say, that is no longer a real boundary. Schools don't let children go home with a stranger that turns up no matter if they say they're a grandparent for example. This isn't because all grandparents are considered predators but because checks and balances (more than just someone's word) are needed for the safety of all.
I think it's naive to think predators wouldn't go to some lengths to have the kind of access they desire.
My Mum wouldn't be allowed to pick my child up from nursery as the nursery don't know her. If she gathered other grandparents and campaigned against this fact because grandparents are generally lovely people who just want to pick up their grandchildren and the chance of that being hijacked by predators is small I think most people would see the flaw in their arguement. Yes most grandparents are loving and not a threat but that's not the point. Safeguarding is. Their feelings are not more important than children's safety.
That means some limits regarding what people can do around vulnerable groups.
I hope I'm not grandparent phobic for saying so.

I just do not allow experience of either sex or gender to undermine the whole, or to blur my view or experience as a whole

I think it's basic neoliberal individualism and postmodern post-gender thinking - you know social structures such as gender, race and class only exist if you personally see or construc them and because Chocolate does not 'see' or acknowledge these and because they construct their own reality they are somehow libersted unlike us oldies who, you know, are actually concerned about rape or being paid less than our male colleagues. We just need to get with the programme and magically think all this away. It's just our own poor thinking that has held us back for centuries, women!

@Chocolate50

& now I have a business to run (yes for those who somehow characterised that I'm someone who is so privileged that I do not have my own business, built only by myself!!! With no help from any man to be seen!!). So I'm stepping out of this to do so.

Wut? Where did that come from?