I wouldn't miss any statues of people

[Hingeandbracket]

Right from being a kid and first being aware of statues of famous people I never saw the point.

I wouldn't miss a single one, actually; even the ones to people I liked like Victoria Wood and Eric Morecambe - why don't we just chuck them all in the sea?

@Meruem

It's not the statues as such, but what comes next? TV shows are being targeted, ok I think Little Britain is shit and I certainly won't miss it. But is it books next? Then what? Targeting things from the past doesn't bring equality to the present.

This is what happens when the pubs, colleges and gyms are shut, sport is stopped and people have way too much time on their hands.

Even the protests through the weekend (a week after the initial protest) were rooted in boredom.

Gone With The Wind just removed from HBO Max.

Gone With The Wind just removed from HBO Max

It has been removed temporarily. It will return in the future with a "discussion of its historical context" - I think that's a really important and valuable step.

However there is intellectual snobbery against Burns in Scotland. Academics don't want to be associated with a 'kailyard' mentality.

What twaddle.

I’d miss statues - I mean, where would we keep traffic cones?...

It has been removed temporarily. It will return in the future with a "discussion of its historical context" - I think that's a really important and valuable step

There are quite a lot of films that might need this!

Personally I don't want a hectoring caveat before a film becoming the norm.

Personally I don't want a hectoring caveat before a film becoming the norm

Do you class a discussion around the context of the movie as hectoring?

I mean GWTW is my all time favourite movie - that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the problematic content. An information piece on the context of the movie would be an excellent education resource.

I cannot think of really anyone political/philanthropic who has been posthumously commemorated by a statue that is not in some way tainted. Even the people who we would hold up as manifestly good Britons did some pretty rubbish things to anyone outside of Britain.

@Vivi0 Where did I say I support slave trader memorials?

What I do say is who gets to decide? Where do you stop? Are you trying to erase history? If a statue (as the one in Bristol) provokes outrage and discussion and highlights black or ethnic inequality, why erase it from history? If all these memorials and names went, don't we risk losing the discussion points? Would Coulson be forgotten by history if we remove statues and place names, and his crimes erased from the record books?

Such a path is a historically dangerous one, as if we don't learn from our history we are destined to repeat it.

And of course treat us all like morons with 'warnings' before films like Gone With the Wind. We couldn't possibly watch it and squirm with embarrassment at how the servants were treated. But we talk about it. We acknowledge the wrongness of it. We look at the history of the African American woman who won the Oscar but was almost barred from accepting it. We are outraged by this history.

But let's sweep it all away because it is offensive and never acknowledge its existence.

Let's literally whitewash history.

Statues are biased history - removing them does not erase history. History is written by those that were more powerful- the winners. Who gets someone thinks should be commemorated as a statue depends on this bias.

Colston's statue being removed isn't denying history, how can it? The past still happened, is just changing what was seen as positive. In fact, its presence was denying history - did it make any mention of his notorious past? Was the fact he made his fortune through human suffering mentioned? Or was it praise for his charity?

Why wasn't there a statue commemorating the hundreds of thousands who the cost of their freedom and lives built the city?

This is going down the route of the smoking ban in films, which did for Cruella Deville amongst others for a (short) while.

It is a problem. Deliverance is a great piece of cinematic history. The remake of the Dambusters was scuppered not least by awkward questions about Guy Gibson's dog.

Personally, I'm offended by Downton Fucking Abbey and the perpetuation of the lie that the lower orders were happy to serve and knew their place in those elegant days.

Fuck you, Fellowes and fuck you Robert Altman for starting him off on this road.

Personally I don't want a hectoring caveat before a film becoming the norm. Exactly

I always want to push over these shiny fuckers whenever I see them.

@pinktaxi

Where did I say I support slave trader memorials?

I never said you did! Nor did I imply it.

What I do say is who gets to decide?

Society gets to decide. As a society, we view the slave trade as a crime against humanity. Why would we leave a statue commemorating a slave trader out on public display. It’s the exact reason there are no statues of Hitler or any Nazis standing. Why should Colston’s statue remain? What’s the difference?

Where do you stop?

Taking down controversial statues isn’t a book burning. It is not the beginning of censorship. It is saying “We, as a society, no longer wish to commemorate you.”

Are you trying to erase history?

I don’t understand how taking down a statue is in any way, shape or form erasing history. I never learned anything about history from a statue, I have from reading books though.

If a statue (as the one in Bristol) provokes outrage and discussion and highlights black or ethnic inequality, why erase it from history?

The statue doesn’t highlight inequality, it commemorates a man who committed crimes against humanity.

If all these memorials and names went, don't we risk losing the discussion points?

No, these discussions should be happening in schools. My education was silent on our involvement in the slave trade. It made no mention whatsoever of streets in Glasgow being named after prominent slave traders, or the benefits brought to the city from the proceeds of it. I would imagine that is similar UK wide.

Would Coulson be forgotten by history if we remove statues and place names, and his crimes erased from the record books?

No, taking down a statue does not erase someone from the record books. He is only forgotten by history if he is no longer spoken about. As I said, these discussions should be happening in schools, not because his statue has been permitted to stand.

Such a path is a historically dangerous one, as if we don't learn from our history we are destined to repeat it

As I said, taking down a statue is hardly a book burning. I don’t understand the opposition to this at all.

This is why it matters: 'Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.'

Do you class a discussion around the context of the movie as hectoring?

Not if its a one off. Is that what they are planning? A one-off educational discussion you can swerve if you want? Or a disclaimer before every showing?

Tbh I doubt many younger people will ever watch GWTW so the message is redundant anyway. Us oldies somehow realise it is reflective of a time that came before.

@RoLaren

This is why it matters: 'Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.'

what twaddle - removing a few statues isn't the same as that depiction of totalitarian rule (and yes we know where you got it from).

@FatalSecrets

Gone With The Wind just removed from HBO Max

It has been removed temporarily. It will return in the future with a "discussion of its historical context" - I think that's a really important and valuable step.

Can we have similar "discussions" around the historical context (and indeed accuracy) of U571 and Braveheart, just to name a couple of the worst offenders?

I think we should have loads more statues, but they should all be nude or funny or clever. Especially nude.

Can we have similar "discussions" around the historical context (and indeed accuracy) of U571 and Braveheart, just to name a couple of the worst offenders?

Absolutely - I was only referencing GWTW because an earlier poster did.

What I do say is who gets to decide? Where do you stop?

At least one poster on MN has said she would be happy to pull down a statue of Margaret Thatcher. I never voted for Thatcher but that's absurd.

And as for "society deciding" so far it's been a mob deciding with Sadiq Khan and the Lord Provost of Glasgow clambering aboard any passing bandwagon.

Statues of Queen Victoria, William Gladstone, William Wilberforce, Sir Robert Peel and Churchill have been defaced. That's not "society deciding" - that's a mob deciding.

The thing is, everyone likes statues that commemorate and celebrate someone they admire.

And to live in a democracy that allows differing political opinions, you have to allow others to have theirs too so that you can have yours.

See, for instance, Martin Luther King (Westminster Abbey), Emmeline Pankhurst (Houses of Commons), or Ghandi (Tavistock Square).

How sad.

Many good and philanthropic people have been immortalised in statue form. Mary Seacole and Edith Cavell to name but two.

@Gingernaut

I use them as landmarks.

I'd miss Black Diana. It's my landmark on my way home.

@Gingernaut I was only thinking about that statue earlier today and wondering what had become of it, wasn’t it intended to be in Walsall bus station at first? And all the times I’ve been past there and I’ve never noticed it was outside.