BLM defunding of the police.

[Kitmerow]

AIBU to think that the majority of people would agree this is a disastrous idea?

@silvermantella I think you need to re read my post and test your comprehensions skills. I did not say black people were being shot by the police in the UK I said force is disproportionately used... So your whole tangent about police gun training which has nothing to do with the established fact for which there are many credible statistics you can google is a response to something I did not say.

“ But the difference between the number of deaths in the UK and USA is not solely down to our police not having guns.”

That is so very interesting, a lot of the deaths referenced by BLM include shootings. The lack of guns does have a part to play. Black people are twice as likely to die in police custody when force has been used and are overrepresented in situations that involve force. Before you try to suggest that the UK police are this great upstanding institution why don’t you read about Sean Rigg who died in a very similar way to George Floyd.

Yes in the 1820s. The human condition has not changed so much that we are not immediately resistant to change, especially around the question of public safety so not so bizarre considering that was the last time there was a different system. It is the height of arrogance to assume that there is no better model to be developed with 200 years worth of experiences to learn from.

I think it's so easy to think of the police as an establishment rather than a group of individuals. So defund the police then what? My son ends up with 3 of his 4 parents unemployed as theirs no more funding for their jobs?

It's a thankless. My worry is that "normal" law abiding citizens who previously felt positive towards the police force are now going in the opposite direction. Do you know how heartbreaking it is to have your five year old be bullied and excluded because their parents are "piggy fucks"? My sons dad was verbally and physically attacked at a children's birthday party because the birthday child's dad had had "dealings" with him at work. What will happen when this is the opinion of the majority rather than the minority?

Just another reason I really loathe the way non-Americans parrot US specific messages.

This and then debate it while often ignoring Americans telling them it means something different in our culture.

The Minneapolis police department had many issues before George Floyd. This wasn’t something decided on a whim more like the breaking point.

theappeal.org/minneapolis-city-council-members-announce-intent-to-disband-the-police-department-invest-in-proven-community-led-public-safety/

I agree completely with shifting the scope of policing responsibilities; way too much now falls within their remit and they are shouldering burdens that belong elsewhere. We expect way too much of them and turn a blind eye to the massive social problems we have in this country that would be far better addressed outside of the criminal justice system.

It makes perfect sense. There are many things that can be funded that means less police presence is required.

You have cops doing wellness checks and then then murdering the person they're supposed to be checking on.

You have cops going into schools and manhandling preteens.

You have cops chasing up parking tickets and drawing their guns on the driver of the car.

There are many more examples I'm sure. Some things just don't need the cops and therefore the money for these things can go elsewhere.

The police have utterly failed to help me with both vehicle crime, and ongoing domestic violence and basically stalking. Relatives had zero help with burglary, violent assault (a nasty mugging), trespassing and (threats to life level) harassment.

My child is now being physically hurt by the father. They aren't interested in that either.

Rape of women is unpunished - though women are dragged though the legal wringer and effectively punished, before the man is let off. If a man claims sex happened (even if so painful and violent it's clearly not consensual), he had a free pass on murder of any woman.

Tbh, I'm starting to question the point of them. They don't do what's advertised on the box and their existence, the legal contract bringing them into existence, actually prevents me from defending my own child, home and self.

If they are to be funded, I expect them to do their jobs - for ALL taxpayers.

The thing about defunding it that while it reduces the amount of money the police receive, it also reduces what they ae responsible for. For example, in the US, the police are responsible for dealing with people in mental health crisis - they would not longer be and the money would instead go to mental health professionals. Instead of locking up people for non violent drug possession, the money would go to rehab facilities (which could be cheaper in the long run with less offending and reduction of other crimes such as shop lifting).

The police in America started as a vigilante group hired to recapture escaped slaves.

I think the broader term might be 'justice reinvestment' as part of a wider anti-carceral movement.

Interesting ideas, but, as usual, in my view, largely sex-blind and oblivious to women's safety and needs.

Listen to Pod Save the People, gives a lot more information on why and what is meant by defunding the police. This is entirely US-centric, but still very interesting.
DeRay McKesson goes through the research on police reform and what does and doesn’t work.

Here's an episode of Last Week Tonight about police accountability from 3 1/2 years ago. If you can find the episode from last Sunday on youtube then it's amazing.

390 million
While it is difficult to know exactly how many guns civilians own around the world, by every estimate the US with more than 390 million is far out in front
Quote from BBC
So that is more than one gun per man, woman and child. I would think if you defund the police the number of guns owned would at least double.
If I lived in the US in say Texas, and the police were no longer armed but were now social workers then I would definitely buy a gun.
People live in lala leftie land.

police in the UK are already underfunded.

And yet, mysteriously they find time to charge around the country investigating "non crimes" at a cost of tens of thousands of pounds.

And when challenged - in court - over the matter, they spent tens of thousands of pounds more to argue the toss.

Underfunded ? Vastly overfunded clearly.

(I'll apologise in advance if it emerges that all the officers involved in the Harry The Owl case were doing it in their free time, and the lawyers that went to court were working for the police pro bono.)

largely sex-blind and oblivious to women's safety and needs

Yep.

I often think that men should pay higher taxes to fund the police and prisons since, overwhelmingly, men commit more crimes than women.

The saying 'prevention is better than cure' applies here I think. They want to try and prevent black people getting into the hands of police in the first place. More funding for youths in the community to stop them thinking their only option is to join a gang for acceptance and to generate income etc is one of the things they would like to see. Surely that would help?

I think there is a very big difference in how the police are funded in the UK and the US.
They are massively over funded in the US and massively under funded in the UK.

PP's saying that the police don't turn up to crimes they've reported, will underfunding further really help with that? Maybe it's because their numbers have been massively reduced, their responsibilities increased and they're having to actually prioritise which crime they can turn up to because there aren't enough of them to deal with them all. If someone has been stabbed and are bleeding out on the street they will put attendance at that above attending a stolen vehicle for example as there is risk to life and it means a lot of things have to be put on the back burner. Its a woeful and potentially dangerous situation but it's not the Polices fault. They've already been defunded in the UK, we've already done it here! Prioritising which crimes they can attend is the inevitable result.

I'm all for increasing funding to those services that the Police are currently having to deal with that are outside their usual remit such as social care and the ambulance service in order to take the pressure off them and let them do the job they are meant to be doing. But not at the expense of an already severely financially restricted police force.

The lack of funding to mental health has a big knock on effect on the police. I bet much of their work is to do with this, people who are alcoholics, have dementia, are homeless, having some sort of psychotic episode etc

I find the assumptions and dismissive attitudes of so many posters to be disappointing. In America, police officers are often untrained in how to deal with mental illness and addiction. Imagine if a homeless person was creating a disruption. If the police are called, it can easily lead to an escalation in the situation and may result in violence. In fact, if the person is black there’s a pretty decent likelihood of that happening. Instead, imagine the police are left to deal with actual crime, and instead a community support worker can come, equipped with the skills to diffuse the situation and help the homeless person access support.

I’d encourage you to look at the case of Elijah McClain, a 23 year old man who was behaving unusually but not committing any crime. He was approach by the police, panicked, the situation quickly escalated, he was violently forced to the ground and held there while he vomited repeatedly. Eventually paramedics came and injected him with ketamine to sedate him. On the way to hospital he went into cardiac arrest and died shortly after. Imagine how the situation could have been different if he was approached by someone who considered that he might have special needs or mental health issues.

@ProfessorSlocombe

police in the UK are already underfunded.

And yet, mysteriously they find time to charge around the country investigating "non crimes" at a cost of tens of thousands of pounds.

And when challenged - in court - over the matter, they spent tens of thousands of pounds more to argue the toss.

Underfunded ? Vastly overfunded clearly.

(I'll apologise in advance if it emerges that all the officers involved in the Harry The Owl case were doing it in their free time, and the lawyers that went to court were working for the police pro bono.)

If someone reports something that initially sounds like a crime, an investigation takes place to establish what has occurred and if any offences have been committed. It offenses have been committed then further investigation takes place depending on the evidence available. If it's established that a crime hasn't occurred, no further investigation takes place.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/20/right-offended-does-not-exist-judge-says-court-hears-police/amp/

I've not read the article fully or researched the case but essentially somone complained that the suspect made a transphobic tweet and it was investigated.

Police determined that no offence has been committed BUT under Crime Reporting Guidlines imposed on police, any Hate Crime reported to police will be generate a police crime report.

This court case was challenging those guidlines and found to be in favour of the claimant.

I often think that men should pay higher taxes to fund the police and prisons since, overwhelmingly, men commit more crimes than women

Now there's a reform!

I agree that the US needs to channel money into other organisations but wouldn't it also be an improvement if guns were not legal?

Americans will never give up their guns.
It will never, ever happen.

That may be so but that means that police will always shoot to kill

@YerAWizardHarry I'm sure police could get different jobs. They have lots of transferrable skills, like losing rape kits, looking the other way while your colleagues kick the crap out of a black kid, and falsifying reports.

Maybe every single cop wouldn't do these things but I'm sure they'd cover for their colleagues if they did. After all, they're members of the biggest gang in the world.

I'm sorry your son is being bullied but the police in the UK have done nothing to inspire confidence, and a great deal to damage their reputation. It's not a niche opinion. I'm a middle class white lady and I really dislike them.

@PicsInRed

The police have utterly failed to help me with both vehicle crime, and ongoing domestic violence and basically stalking. Relatives had zero help with burglary, violent assault (a nasty mugging), trespassing and (threats to life level) harassment.

My child is now being physically hurt by the father. They aren't interested in that either.

Rape of women is unpunished - though women are dragged though the legal wringer and effectively punished, before the man is let off. If a man claims sex happened (even if so painful and violent it's clearly not consensual), he had a free pass on murder of any woman.

Tbh, I'm starting to question the point of them. They don't do what's advertised on the box and their existence, the legal contract bringing them into existence, actually prevents me from defending my own child, home and self.

If they are to be funded, I expect them to do their jobs - for ALL taxpayers.

Great post. Thinking back through times when I've had to involve the police - one was when we found my DFil dead - we had to report it but it definitely didn't have to be to a law enforcement agency. They were nosey and boorish.

Other than that ... I think they recovered my parents car when it got nicked (mid-90s), from a carpark.

DH has been knocked off his bike and witness to car/bike accidents with clear fault on the part of the driver and very good evidence; police didn't bother pursuing either incidents.

I wouldn't go to them if I'd been sexually assaulted.