To ask if you support the Black Lives Matter movement and also supported Corbyn

[Jenala]

I imagine a lot of the protest supporters also supported Corbyn when he was Labour leader. For clarity I support the protest but I didn't support Corbyn. It was regularly said that he was a lifelong anti-racist which may be true in some contexts but he certainly had antisemitic views which was why I couldn't support him. I didnt get this from the media, I actually voted for him in the leadership election. Then I heard about the antisemitism accusations and so I did a lot of research including reading old articles he's written etc and came to my own conclusions. Whatever you think of that, it's undeniable he presided over the party during a time of enormous amounts of antisemitism too.

Which brings me to why I find it hard to see how people reconcile both supporting him and supporting the protests. I've seen a lot on here about how the protests are about a group being systemically oppressed, being unjustly prejudiced against, and crucially that people who say they have experienced racism need to be believed, their experiences matter and their feelings are valid. All great. Yet arguably you can make all the same arguments about Jewish people. As a group they have been oppressed, brutalised and murdered for hundreds and hundreds of years. Nazism may be the most famous and awful example but Jewish people experienced regular pogroms and massacres throughout the world for years before that.

Before anyone suggests it, I'm not arguing one group is more victimised than the other, at all. I'm saying we have two groups who have experienced enormous injustice based on immutable characteristics ('those of Jewish heeitage are targeted as much as practicing Jews hence immutable) who I would argue should both be believed and supported when they name their experiences. Yet when the British Jewish community raised their concerns about Corbyn et al, they were disbelieved, ridiculed, accused of smears etc.

Why are one group rightly believed and supported by the majority (with a minority of people called out for their lack of understanding) when the other group were disbelieved and not supported by the majority? If you support both how do you reconcile it for yourself? I don't see how it's anything other than hypocritical to ignore the legitimate grievances of the Jewish community while being able to understand and support the grievances of the BAME community. I'm glad people are taking the protests seriously but it seems to be that all oppressed minorities should be heard - this did not happen when Corbyn was leader and many good people were willing to look the other way.

What's your point? That racism is political?

Because several racists I know couldn't hold an intelligent political debate if their lives depended on it

OP, I wonder if you did research into the Conservatives' accusations of being Islamophobic too?

I think both major parties had serious flaws in their record on handling issues of racism / phobia. So it may be that people felt JC and Labour were the best of a bad lot, all considered? I know I did.

Thankfully Starmer seems pretty determined to rid the Labour party of it for good as best he can.

I support the BLM protests but I didn’t support Corbyn. I thought it was utterly disgraceful the way he responded to the anti Semitism in his party. What a giant hypocrite.

OP, I wonder if you did research into the Conservatives' accusations of being Islamophobic too?

Maybe not - she said she voted for Corbyn in the leadership election so presumably is/was a Labour member?

Boris Johnson has said and written several racist things, so on the principle of judging the party by the leader, it wouldn’t really be necessary to dig any further into the Conservative party.

I’m not a big corbyn fan but I’m not really sure why he’s still frequently brought into the current political landscape?

Op, realistically, England has two main contenders, politically speaking. At the time of the last election, one party was led by Boris Johnson, one by Jeremy Corbyn.

Which one do you think BLM protesters should prefer to support?

Genuinely interested.

The Black lives matter movement has nothing to do with Corbyn, it is standing up for racial injustices that black people have experienced for years and years, and still experience today. People are standing up now because of the fact that being quietly racist isn’t enough anymore. Black people lose their lives and experience racism every day. I think white people are finally being educated and are beginning to understand that their silence about the issue is compliance in a racism system. Black people are protesting for their fundamental human rights, I think damage to property pales into insignificance compared to actual human lives; mothers, fathers and children killed as a direct result of the colour of their skin.

To say “other minority groups like Jewish people are oppressed too, what about them”. Misses the point of this entire movement, no one is saying their lives don’t matter. They’re saying right now we are talking about black people’s lives.

This is one of the biggest movements we have seen in recent times, they will write about it in history books. Hopefully it will be a change towards more equality. I know I’d rather be on the right side of history protesting for human rights, or donating to organisations etc, than doing nothing. Imagine telling your grand children that during one of the biggest uprisings of our time, you did nothing.

I didn't vote either party, because I felt neither reflected my values - I spoilt my ballot. This was a difficult decision in itself, I didn't especially want to do it, but I couldn't in good conscience vote for any of the candidates standing in my area. I agree the Conservatives have their own issues with racism and I'm no fan of Boris so of course they didn't get my vote. I often get the Conservatives thrown at me when I criticise Corbyn, but I feel confident I have the same values regardless of party, and I'll happily vote for whoever best represents them. Often, but obviously not always, that's been Labour.

I'm not trying to bring Corbyn up pointlessly, he just represents the antisemitism in the party to me. I will try and dig up the articles and post them. Of course it's possible to be against how the Israeli government acts and not be antisemitic, I think I'm someone who does that. That wasn't how he and others in the party behaved.

But I'm getting sidelined, the point of my post was really to ask how some people can wholeheartedly agree with the idea that we need to listen when people tell us they have experienced racism and prejudice, to accept that if we are not from the group that has experienced this oppression we may not fully understand it, and to support those groups right to talk about it - but only believe this stands for some oppressed groups and not others. Surely it should be a universal set of values, that we apply in our interactions with all oppressed groups. Whether that's BAME, or Jewish people, or Yazidis etc etc. I'm concerned for many British people it (thankfully and rightly) is something they can understand in reference to the Black Lives Matter movement, but we're unable to do when confronted with Jewish experience.

I can see how it might come across as whataboutery, but I'm really not trying to pit the two groups against each other or suggest there is some kind of hierachry of oppression. I'm much more trying to look at what I can only see as hypocrisy from those outside of the groups and hopefully understand how people reconcile that, there may we be points I have missed. There should be enough empathy and support to go around, I'm not suggesting the current protests therefore shouldn't be happening or are wrong. My argument is really for more of them.

Really appreciate the thoughtful replies, I was a bit nervous but it seems thoughtful discussion can still be had on the internet...

I do find it rather hard to believe that, when all the media was trying to suggest Corbyn was antisemitic they didn’t find these articles he’d written and shout them from the rooftops.

Also not trying to make an all lives matter point, though again could see how it could come across this way. Agree that right now we're talking about how black lives matter and not standing quietly beside racism anymore, that's important and needs to happen. I'm not saying we should be talking about Jewish people right now, or that the conversation needs to be expanded to include them and other oppressed groups. The focus can stay right where it is.

But I don't think it takes away from the current conversation to ask why for many, Jewish lives and experience didn't matter when many of the community were trying desperately to talk about what was happening one or two years ago. My question isn't so much "what about Jewish people?" My question is "why don't those values of listening and supporting when people tell you they've experienced racism/xebophobia stand regardless of the group expressing themselves?"
I suppose I see it as an interesting aside, not a conversation we should be having instead of. It also seems like a good time to reflect on it, while people are engaged and motivated to stand against racism, in the hopes that next time another group in the future asks for our help, we might give it more freely than we did. This includes when we inevitably need to stand up for black lives again. Momentum needs to be sustained to reach goals of equality.

@jenala and others calling Corbyn anti-Semitic: a) he was never formally reported to the party for being so and any evidence would have led to his immediate expulsion - no evidence; b) the leaked Labour report shows huge determination to smear Corbyn with anti-Semitism by deliberately not acting on cases so that he would be blamed (some suspensions went on for 2 years unaddressed under the anti-Corbyn general secretary Iain McNichol) and c) the Panorama programme involved many anti-Corbyn staffers, some of whom are named in the leaked report. There was a huge internal effort to discredit him. It's appalling that some of them now sit on the front bench.

So, to answer your two questions: yes and yes. He's a decent man. I miss him.

why don't those values of listening and supporting when people tell you they've experienced racism/xebophobia stand regardless of the group expressing themselves?
Because that is reductive and simplistic. As PPs pointed out, the Conservatives had a worse record on anti-Semitism, on Islamophobia, on enshrining anti-traveller legislation, etc. People can have values of supporting and listening and ultimately see beyond the headlines to the party policies.
Not voting and spoiling votes ultimately let the Conservatives in. They have a much worse record on all types of racism and on disadvantaging poor communities where minorities are more likely to live.
I also don't believe Corbyn was or is anti-Semitic and the leaked Labour report as well as the LSE report on media bias explain why people were cynical about the way Corbyn was attacked.

I didn’t like when Corbyn changed an enquiry into anti semitism and turned into general racism. I also do not like BAME for the same reason, as whilst they all face racism, the racism presents differently and needs separate interventions.

I support BLM. I could not vote Labour while Corbyn was leader and spoilt my ballot paper.

Many Jewish people believe Corbyn is anti Semitic. I am one of them. When this 'so called' anti Semitism is questioned, it's akin to questioning whether a black person is right to assert that they have experienced racism. Those who experience prejudice know what it is - even if others might find it hard to discern.

I am Jewish.
I voted Tory.
I support BLM.

Yet when the British Jewish community raised their concerns about Corbyn et al, they were disbelieved, ridiculed, accused of smears etc.

Were they? I saw a huge amount of anger, ridicule and smears directed at Corbyn and, particularly during the GE campaign, the word 'antisemitic' was everywhere in relation to Corbyn. I also saw a lot of sympathy towards Jews.

Corbyn is no longer relevant. It doesn't matter what he thought, decent man that he was until he tolerated anti-Semitism.

Supporting BLM and never supported Corbyn ( never voted Tory either). So what? Is this relevant for... what?

If you're waiting for a perfect politician or a perfect political party OP, you might as well resign yourself to a lifetime of not casting a vote.

www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/killing-jeremy-corbyn

The killing of Jeremy Corbyn
Peter Oborne and David Hearst

^The former Labour leader was the victim of a carefully planned and brutally executed political assassination^

I did a lot of research at the time as well, and I came to the opposite conclusion to you. I believe Corbyn was anti-racist and I believe he would have made a great PM. I stand by my Jewish friends and family who were also Corbyn-supporters and whose voice was erased by the media.
Anyway. He’s not Leader any more. It’s sad, but that’s the way it is. We need to stop going over old divisions and focus on getting the Tories out. I’m not a fan of Keir Starmer but you can bet your life I’ll vote for him and encourage others to do so too.

I don't support the Black Lives Matter movement nor did I support Corbyn.

I support BLM.

I did not support Corbyn, mostly due to him being an utter failure as an opposition leader, and his dubious stance on womens' rights. He's like a footballer stood in front of an open goal yet still misses all the shots. I didn't like how anti-Semitism was allowed to taint the Party either, he should have got on top of that situation.

You seem to be using a lot of words to basically say BLM & it's supporters are hypocritical via also supporting Corbyn/anti-Semitism.

It seems to me you listen to media smears a lot; Corbyn isn't even relevant now, BLM aren't known for anti-Semitism it's not even a conversation, and you seem unaware that BLM supporter does not automatically mean Corbyn supporter.
For me BLM and anti-racism are civil and human rights issues. Nothing to do with politics.

& I vote Green Party.

I support BLM

I did not support Labour when Corbyn was leading and momentum were controlling the party for many reasons the anti Semitism became such an issue it was shameful

We have a prime minister who calls black people 'piccaninies with watermelon smiles' and we're getting whataboutery about the former opposition leader

^ What user said