Challenging casual racism - not as easy as it might seem ?

[Thisisworsethananticpated]

For quite some time I’ve been reading about the history in the US , and how the UK despite our assertions we are ‘not as bad’ have our own issues .
Like many people (I’m white) I’ve been stuck in a real downer watching what’s happening in the US , and reading - a lot

And actually talking about it . With people
Back and white .

One thing that occurred to me is white people need to step up . And by that I
Mean rather than sighing , or rolling our eyes when we encounter racism - we need to be more direct .
And only a few days in , it’s depressing realisation that it’s actually not that easy .

For example , a white man being being verbally aggressive to a dark skinned worker in a shop . I rolled my eyes , I went to the shop worker after and apologised . But actually , should I have intervened and asked the white man to stop speaking ? Would that have ended in me getting abused ?

Secondly someone who has actually been very financially kind to me . Made
Some statements . I did reply , but honestly at 50% of the strength I could have. Leaving me with the honest and shameful realisation that my motive was fear of losing this relationship .

So there we are . 2 days in .

I’m not sure what the AIBU is , but i am
Curious if anyone feels the same , and is realising that to challenge this - we really do need to be open to taking some risks and being way way more courageous . And in doing so , incurring some risk .

Well it not every non white person is a victim needing to be rescued by a white knight in shining armour.. challenging the guy in the shop would depend on what he waa arguing about and saying.
A non white person can be wrong and desrerve bollocking. If they were racisy towards them yes you should have piped up and asked for the manager or security in solidarity with the abused.

Second scenario shows where your priorities at. You could learn but these things are principles, need to be ingrained from within.

I am bame.....why did you apologise to the shop worker?

Thats incredibly patronising. As someone who is bame, i dont need an apology for someone being rude......from someone else who happens to have a similar skin colour.

'I apologise to your race on behalf of mine'.

The wite half of my family is irish. I woild dream of going round and apologising for the IRA or any recent terrorism on behalf of those who are brown skinned.

You also assumed the man was having a good because the worker was dark skinned and he is racist. Maybe he is a dick. But not a racist dick.

As for yout 'relationship' with someone who give you money. Thats a moral issue for you. The fact that your relationship, for you is based in them giving you money....thats what you dont want to lose. I think, there fars more issues there than so racist comments they made. It doesnt show you in a good light.

Your post has a lot of 'white saviour' about it. Rather than 'white ally.

No, it isn’t always easy, but it must be done. Even when you have something to lose, even when it’s someone you value that you have to stand up against, even when it’s scary or awkward or inconvenient. You’re not being unreasonable to recognise that it isn’t always easy - if it was, more people would do it. But it’s so, so important.

How often do you really encounter racism, casual or outright? I really can’t tell you last time I witnessed anything or was part of a discussion that could be construed as racism in any way.

I suppose it depends where you live, but really if you manage to “make a difference” two days in a row, maybe you are looking for things that aren’t actually there?

Yes it's hard.

In the case with the shopkeeper I suppose it depends, if he's screaming racist abuse your likely to be screamed at too. Only you can assess the situation you're in. The shopkeeper may have learned that the best way to deal with it is to say nothing. By speaking up you might make things worse.

I don't know how I would have handled it tbh.

As for apologising, I probably would of too in a " I'm sorry you were treated like that " way. (as opposed to an I apologize on behalf of my people situation)

am bame.....why did you apologise to the shop worker?

I worded that poorly
I gave him eye contacted , smiled and we kind of shrugged at the behaviour. You can trust me it had racist undertones . It was unpleasant and shocking .

So it was more human being to human being

But at this stage , I’ll take that on the chin (White saviour )

I do encounter racism , even through I live in a so called multicultural city its around.

I would say I see instances almost weekly

A major issue is parents and their attitudes to Certain schools , bad behaviour , how naughty black boys are spoken about , how People speak about where I live .

The assumptions people make about an estate near me .

And it’s not just BAME, the pasting that travellers get on the local Facebook page

It’s not quite the little melting pot people think London is

I really can’t tell you last time I witnessed anything or was part of a discussion that could be construed as racism in any way.

Well it didn't take long for yet another racism denier to pipe in. Just because you haven't seen racism happening doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Ffs does this still need explaining? And I'm sorry but a white person is hardly the one the judge if they had witnessed an act of racism as I doubt you'd even be able to tell what subtle racism is.

Ikwym, OP.

In situations like the one you mention, and if close enough, I will often just say "How very rude" to the person who is ... well, being rude. If they degenerate into out-and-out racist language, I offer to be a witness to hate speech if the victim chooses to report it.

In a retail setting it may be appropriate to report the customer to management. A man has been banned from my local Tesco for racially abusing a staff member who wears a hijab after another customer and I complained.

I think you need to stop assuming that all white people are as venal as you are. Some are much worse. Some are much better. We can all choose who to keep company with based on their actions.

Why the term venal ?

I don’t make assumptions , but you can’t help notice what people say and do . Just because I’m white , it doesn’t mean I am blind to racism

• Secondly someone who has actually been very financially kind to me . Made Some statements . I did reply , but honestly at 50% of the strength I could have. Leaving me with the honest and shameful realisation that my motive was fear of losing this relationship .*

Venal.

I'm so fucking sick of this bullshit, begging forgiveness, kneeling, washing feet. Fuck that.

How about everyone follows the dick rule. Don't be a dick. To anyone. That's it.

I gave him eye contacted , smiled and we kind of shrugged at the behaviour. You can trust me it had racist undertones . It was unpleasant and shocking

So you didnt apologise at all? Not even nearly an apology. Odd that the story has changed completely, since its been pointed out thats the thing to do. Bame people don't want an apology of someone who hasn't done anything wrong, because they have the same skin colour as the person who did.

Do white people want apologies from me because of the Rotherham child abuse? Or 9/11? Or even the IRA?

If that was happening. Go get a supervisor. You dont have to confront someone, if you aren't comfortable. If you know the man, report it to 101. Its a hate crime.

I am bame and live in a ex mining town where there are very few bame people. Its quite well known, apparently, for people being racists. I dont encounter it every week, but not everyone recognises I am BAME. I am also in a mixed race relationship. Dp is built like a brick wall so maybe that's why we don't get comments.

But to encounter this every week is quite unusual. But maybe it is that bad in some areas.

But here you have given 2 examples where you havent really actually done anything. The second one, because it is to your advantage not to.

Maybe you need to look at that.

Why would it be easy? Its going to be difficult and uncomfortable but it needs to be done.

I’m examining my conscience
That’s all I can say , their views are very confronting . They helped me at a time of great (major ) need and saved me . But I can’t let
My genuine gratitude stop me from challenging it

How about everyone follows the dick rule. Don't be a dick. To anyone. That's it.

Yes please! That would be great!

I am calling bullshit on your story OP.
It takes a liar to have a good memory.
First of all when asked why you apologised you say, well I didn’t actually apologise I rolled my eyes and shrugged.
You clearly state you went back into the shop and apologised.
I have reported this thread.
I suggest you get it pulled before you make an even bigger liar of yourself.
For anyone else who thinks the OP is please report.

Look just pull it
It’s given me food for thought and have already started to address one of the issues I flagged , and will continue to do so

But I see no value to the world in this conversation anymore

Yeah good idea OP.
As a previous poster said don’t be a dick.

Actually I would prefer it to stay.

As an example of someone posting and discussing this issue, at an attempt at 'look how great I am willing to discuss this issue and learn'.

When that's not whats its about.

You either apologised or you didnt. Is not worded badly. Who says they apologised when they simply shrugged their shoulders.

I am sick of being used as an project to make people feel better about themselves.

@GreytExpectations interesting assumption that I am white.

I didn’t say it doesn’t happen. Or that people aren’t on the receiving end of racism on a regular basis.

I said you must be pretty unlucky to be witnessing or actively involved in an example of racism on a daily basis (if you are not the victim) hence I find it a stretch for the OP to task us with challenging it... are we to go looking for it because there isn’t enough of it in our lives?

GreytExpectations Sorry another person here that doesn’t see or experience any outwardly racist acts or words, when with or near non white people, can you give actual incidents of racism, perhaps I live in a non confrontational area

I’m really not using this issue to feel better about myself , but I can see why the post
Lands that way , I can
I feel really shit about it
And I feel very powerless and whilst I hate it
I struggle to understand how I can effectively do anything when i see instances in real life

If I challenge it at the time , I risk getting into a fight
If I say something afterwards I am grovelling and feet washing
If I do nothing , I’m complicit

There could well be 4th end even 5th options i havnt considered

But despite how this thread has turned out (badly !) I still believe that white people have a role to play , so as clumsily and as badly as I have worded things . I am going to keep challenging myself , I shan’t probably post about it though

And regarding the second example I gave , I am 100% working on that and shall continue to do so

I agree that it can be difficult to challenge casual racism and racial prejudice because of the expectation to be polite even if others are rude, which many women internalise. Overt racism is easier to challenge but white people seem to expect that subtle remarks will be ignored, so challenging them is perceived as aggressive or confrontational. Anyone who regularly challenges subtle or casual prejudice is construed as a troublemaker or over sensitive. So it’s attributed to personality rather than attitude.

And plenty of white people think that subtle prejudice is ‘not really racism’ so they dispute the challenge. Then there’s the perceived outrage in the accusation of racism, in which being called a racist is seen as somehow worse than racism itself. It all adds up to making it difficult to challenge people.

Probably the only solution is to just keep doing it and accept that it will be uncomfortable. Find a way that works for you and stick with it. I’m currently using phrases like “I don’t wish to hear that word again” and “Let’s not generalise about ethnicity.” Maybe not ideal in every situation, it depends so much on who you’re talking to and where you are.

If I challenge it at the time , I risk getting into a fight. If I say something afterwards I am grovelling and feet washing
If I do nothing , I’m complicit

No. Thats bollocks. What would you say to a white shop worker who had just been receiving abuse. I would say 'are you OK?'

I have given several suggestions of what you could have done.

If you apologise to someone who has been racially abused, it doesnt make it go away.

If you just shrugged, what do you think that achieved? Did it make them feel like you understand or get it? No, because you can't.

We all have a part to play. Of course we do. But you just treat bame people, like non bame people.

If you see a customer abusing any shop worker, you have several options which you could take. But you don't need to only take them if the person on the receiving end is bame.

You are using this thread to make yourself feel better. Maybe you though the apology/shrug made the second situation better.

Maybe you are struggling with yourself, over allowing racist behaviour because it benefits you.

I dont know. But this isnt about being anti racist, because its a bad thing or supporting bame people.

If you neighbour is broken into and the purpotrator is white....would you go an apologise on behalf of white people?