Challenging casual racism - not as easy as it might seem ?

[Thisisworsethananticpated]

For quite some time I’ve been reading about the history in the US , and how the UK despite our assertions we are ‘not as bad’ have our own issues .
Like many people (I’m white) I’ve been stuck in a real downer watching what’s happening in the US , and reading - a lot

And actually talking about it . With people
Back and white .

One thing that occurred to me is white people need to step up . And by that I
Mean rather than sighing , or rolling our eyes when we encounter racism - we need to be more direct .
And only a few days in , it’s depressing realisation that it’s actually not that easy .

For example , a white man being being verbally aggressive to a dark skinned worker in a shop . I rolled my eyes , I went to the shop worker after and apologised . But actually , should I have intervened and asked the white man to stop speaking ? Would that have ended in me getting abused ?

Secondly someone who has actually been very financially kind to me . Made
Some statements . I did reply , but honestly at 50% of the strength I could have. Leaving me with the honest and shameful realisation that my motive was fear of losing this relationship .

So there we are . 2 days in .

I’m not sure what the AIBU is , but i am
Curious if anyone feels the same , and is realising that to challenge this - we really do need to be open to taking some risks and being way way more courageous . And in doing so , incurring some risk .

I think it’s a bit paternalistic to think you have to intervene in someone else’s conversation cos you think there are “racist undertones“. BAME people don’t necessarily need you to “sort it all out”.

@Trevsadick - good post. Why don’t we just treat people with the same courtesy and respect as we would like to be treated.

I’m white and work in retail.

Please intervene. I love it when other customers stand up for retail workers.

I am not allowed to walk away from a customer until they swear or say something abusive, so the customer is in a huge position of power compared to the worker.

The problem with that @CayrolBaaaskin is that one person's unwelcome paternalism is another person's complicity. It's the same with misogyny- sometimes I want/need someone to step in, other times I can sort it out for myself . But, on balance, there have been more times when I wished someone would have backed me up than pretended it wasnt happening right in front of them.

This is why I have almost no friends. I would rather lose friends than put up with listening to discrimination or bullying. I can't tolerate it at all. I was in an abusive relationship with a man I could not answer back to for fear of repercussions and used to have racist, homophobic, misogynistic, welfare slating, single parent hating, anti-disability, migrant bashing shit talked at me all day. Even when I belong or have belonged to some of those groups. I won't listen to any of that again, I've met my threshold and now I call people out regularly even when it causes an argument. I wouldn't if there was a risk of physical violence to myself or my children. I don't mind being on my own, I do mind listening to discrimination.

How about everyone follows the dick rule. Don't be a dick. To anyone. That's it.

Because we don't live in la-la land, we live in the real world where lots of people ARE dicks. The question is, what should bystanders do? It's not a simple question.

There are disproportionate numbers of BAME people in customer facing roles, which is one of the reasons why they are more likely to die from Coronavirus.

Since the outbreak began, violence from customers has doubled. During the outbreak one in three retail workers has been threatened and one in six report that they are abused by customers on every shift.

Please speak up. Many BAME workers are also very young. Customers will speak to 16 year old black male coworkers as if the 16 year old is the threat. They are children working part time while they do GCSEs or A levels. It is really scary having some adult yelling at them.

I agree there is a fine line between being paternalistic and being supportive. I guess think about whether you are doing something to help another person, or to just help yourself feel better.

In the shop situation, I would probably say something directly but I do have a lot of experience dealing with unpleasant people (was a waitress for many years). It's important to read the situation though. Is the shop worker handling the situation themselves, or ignoring it and obviously waiting for it to pass? Then saying something can make it worse.

If I didn't think I could say something safely, I would find a supervisor if possible.

If I could do it safely, I might film the abuse on my phone and let the shop worker know in case they wanted to use it to pursue charges.

If there was really nothing I could do in the moment, I would at least speak to the shop worker afterward, if it seemed appropriate. I would not apologise on behalf of white people, but just ask, are you ok? They might be totally fine, they might be upset. So you can take your lead from there.

Don't be a white saviour, just be a decent person who doesn't want to see other people abused.

@dreamingbohemian

How about everyone follows the dick rule. Don't be a dick. To anyone. That's it.

Because we don't live in la-la land, we live in the real world where lots of people ARE dicks. The question is, what should bystanders do? It's not a simple question.

If you are willing to accept that people are dicks, and that you can't change that, then why get so worked up about dickishness?

It sounds like you want to do better at being an ally, and supporting black people. That's a great start.

What you can do is to speak up when you find yourself in these situations, even when it's hard. You have to be prepared to feel a certain level of discomfort. But just know that the discomfort you feel is nothing compared to victims of oppression who have dealt with it for their entire lives.

So no, it won't feel 'nice' (and it's not supposed to), but it needs to be done in order for things to change.

I'm with you - I'm also going to make more of an effort to speak up in future, as there are things I've let go in the past and ultimately that weighs on me, rather than the perpetrator.

Because I don't think we should just accept dickishness.

People act like dicks because they can. If it were less socially acceptable to act this way, then a lot of them would stop.

It is much less acceptable now, compared to 30 or 40 years ago, to use racist or sexist language. That is essentially because as a society we've decided it's a really dickish thing to do. So challenging people who still engage in this behaviour is a way of upholding that.

I guess. More people can't be bothered calling people out all the time though. Tiring, busy-bodyish, potentially combative. Easier to just ignore dicks. Also irritates them.

Sorry, most not more.

There have been some situations where it’s a no brainer to intervene , and I have And will continue

It’s just this time it was a fairly stocky white man and I was honestly scared ! But I was also really appalled , I had a physical reaction and my heart was beating faster

The ‘casual’ (and I hate that term) is where I need to grow some . As many people said it’s takes some courage and some stock phrases to state it

This isn’t new , it’s been bugging me for bloody ages . I think lock down gives you a LOT of time to think and reflect

And the more I think the more I remember stuff

And the more I remember the more discomfited I feel

As PP said the list of people that I feel good and happy around is shrinking

Oh definitely. I guess I see certain kinds of dickishness as worse than others, crossing a line where I would want to intervene.

Yelling racist abuse at a shop worker is awful. And I think illegal in the UK? So I don't think it's something everyone should ignore.

Honestly, if I saw someone yelling racist abuse at a shop worker I would think they were completely off their rocker and potentially unstable, so no way would I be intervening. I would support the police being called to deal with them though!

If you feel intimidated I would always put a complaint in by writing/email/phone. Yes the person on the shop floor might now know how you feel but logging a complaint does mean you have done something about it (within your limitations). If enough complaints are made from customers regarding how staff are treated then the shop should look into how to protect their BAME staff better. It's not always the right thing to do to step in anyway it can be seen as condescending/paternalistic and some people don't want rescuing. So it can be hard to judge a situation appropriately. That doesn't mean you do nothing though, it means you go away and work out what you CAN do. Or make a plan as to how to help people in that situation in future so you are better prepared in future.

Practising some phrases to say and how to speak in a way that is clear and assertive without welcoming aggression, how to help without becoming a 'white saviour,' These are things most people cannot do well off the cuff. Better to be prepared. And also find alternative routes to help.

You could also speak to security or a manager in this situation, or call the police, it does sound very volatile

Don’t feel bad. Confronting somebody in a shop, especially in an aggressive manner, is not going to make anyone stop and be like yeah you’re right I’m sorry and change their views. He would have just got defensive and nasty.
But something needs to be done and I don’t know what the answer is.

I don't know if you mean to, Immunity, but you're making a case there for being so passive as to do nothing. No-one is saying she has to confront anyone, or to be physically aggressive. That's not what speaking up means.

I had quite a challenging conversation with my DM yesterday, who is a kind person, generally, and churchgoing.

She used a certain tone of voice, hesitant, I suppose, about someone who may be a potential lodger of a family member. When I called her out, she said, well, she'd had a bad social experience with someone, also African, about 10 years, so it was justified.

I pointed out that if someone had a negative experience of a person born in her country and applied it to her, she would be rightfully hurt and angry because it's unfair. But I just don't think she could see it.

I asked her if she was a Christian? Of course, she said, but still couldn't see the issue.

In the end I just said, I didn't want to her speak those comments to me. I don't know if she will change her views, probably not I expect, but at least, she might think before she expresses it to anyone else and my DC's definitely won't hear it from her.

But something needs to be done and I don’t know what the answer is.

One of the many things suggested on this thread?

I am sure people elsewhere have other ideas. So talk to people who do act.

No thinks the op should put herself in danager. No one wants that.

But its not put yourself in danger or be passive.

I dislike the concept of policing how people think. Provide alternative viewpoints, make the behaviour unacceptable, fine. But we can't control thoughts.

This blanket 'they hold racist views and so they are evil people' idea is ridiculous and simplistic. Everyone has some prejudices. Dicks act upon them. Non-dicks don't and are open to changing their minds. Hence the dick rule.

cardsforKittens this is spot on:

Challenging overt racism (of the sort that you still sometimes get from black cab drivers) is relatively straightforward. Challenging the more covert racism which is actually more important (because it tackles the institutional racism which actually does more to keep BAME people down) is more difficult.

I was in a work situation a few years ago when someone I worked with who was black was terminated for no very obviously apparent reason. This person's performance was fine. I asked someone over drinks why they had been terminated and was told it "wasn't a good fit" but could never really get to the heart of what that should be the case.

It was subtle, but umistakeable, racism. I was told the person ate "odd-smelling food", for example. The fact that they drank less than colleagues was commented upon and their unwillingness to go to industry events. Their dress sense etc. All of it was plausibly deniable and could be attributed to "culture" but if you broke it down it was based on racial difference.

I took it up with a senior person once and the this person essentially stonewalled on it and said it was "cultural fit" but absolutely not racism. But I knew this was bollocks. The other individuals may not have recognised this as racism in a conscious way. But racism it was.

It was really hard to know what to do. I am a lone parent and sole breadwinner and needed and still need my job. I didn't feel I could quit -- maybe in retrospect that was a mistake but it would have been quite a punchy thing to do. I couldn't have brought a complaint easily as I didn't have evidence and the situation didn't directly concern me.

I really struggled with this. I feel I let that person down by not speaking out and was not true to my own values. But I didn't see a way of challenging it without putting my own income at risk. I suppose that's the "when good men do nothing" situation isn't it... I'd love to hear how others think I could have dealt with it.

The people

Fuck me that’s a tough and horrible one
That’s exactly the kind of thing that’s so tricky and so depressing

My company’s flavour has always been middle aged white men , we have one manager who is BAME and he has just resigned . I hope he is honest in his exit interview

Right now , off the top of my head I don’t know what you can do

I would actually love to hear what others suggest

The only way this changes is when new more aware management come in who are open to change . It’s systemic