I'm so frustrated about gaslighting people who deny white privilege

[Moomin8]

Please, someone tell me what to say to people who are so dismissive of racism.

'Nobody is really racist, we are all the same'

'The protesters are the real problem'

'Racism isn't a problem any more' etc

I'm so angry when I hear this. I can't pretend to understand what it's like to be marginalised because of your race but I can see it's a real problem and it's not getting any better,

What do you say to refute people who don't want to change their shitty opinions?

Someone making comments like that isn't willing to be educated. My mother is like this (not necessarily about BLM but just about everything). You can literally show her cold, hard evidence that she is wrong and she will twist the facts to make it so her opinions are still valid in her mind.

Could I share my experience? As a very young woman I lived in a city where there was a bit of a trend for young Asian males to subject young white females to pretty vile racial abuse. There were slurs written on walls, if white women walked past a group of these lads something nasty would be said. I was subject to this a lot - I'd sit down in the library and the table would covered in graffiti about honky whores, I can't tell you how many times attention was drawn to my smelly, white girl vagina, etc. It was frightening and humiliating. It was definitely aimed at my skin colour but it absolutely wasn't racism.

The reason it wasn't racism is that if I felt threatened and went to a security guard or policeman I was entirely confident that they would believe and protect me. If I complained to the library about the tables it was sorted out asap. 5 or 6 years later, when I was establishing a career there were no people of Asian ethnicity in my work place despite it being one of a small number of places you could use our degree and there being a sizable number of Asian students in my class. I still see and hear the P word in my society, like I did years before the abuse that I took. I've never heard any of the terms I was called before of since. White ladies complaints were acted on effectively, Asian people's complaints not at all.

This is why white people in white majority societies aren't subject to racism and other races are.

"I'm so frustrated about gaslighting people who deny white privilege"
OP do you mean you are fed up with people who gaslight others because they deny they are racist? At first I thought you hadnt understood what gaslight means,cand you meant you were fed up with people who reveal people who deny white privilege.

"IDontLikeZombies

Could I share my experience? As a very young woman I lived in a city where there was a bit of a trend for young Asian males to subject young white females to pretty vile racial abuse. There were slurs written on walls, if white women walked past a group of these lads something nasty would be said. I was subject to this a lot - I'd sit down in the library and the table would covered in graffiti about honky whores, I can't tell you how many times attention was drawn to my smelly, white girl vagina, etc. It was frightening and humiliating. It was definitely aimed at my skin colour but it absolutely wasn't racism."

That absolutely was racism. They did it because of the colour of your skin. That's what racism is. The fact that the people you told would believe you, doesnt make what they did any less racist.

TabbyMumz No that is racial prejudice not racism. Google the difference.

" Prejudice refers to a preconceived idea about a particular group, while racism involves an unequal distribution of power on the basis of race.
Sociologists have found that racism has led to a wide range of detrimental outcomes for people of color, including unequal access to jobs and housing, as well as an increased risk of being a victim of police brutality.
According to the sociological perspective, members of privileged groups can experience prejudice, but their experience will be different than the experience of someone who experiences systemic racism."

It is awful though and I'm sorry that happened to you Zombies.

@BakedCam Thanks for the link, I will have a read.

The problem with white privilege is that we don't "experience" it. We're just living our lives and we have a lack of systemic racism. It's difficult to see something that is just not there. The only times I have experienced white privilege is if I was with a BAME person who was treated differently than me, and I haven't seen it much. We are basically blind to it. You can't be angry for people not understanding something, you can only keep educating till they do. White privilege exists but it's not something we have to change for the worse, we need to change the racism so BAME people have the same experience,

Not sure gaslighting is the right term.

OP do you mean you are fed up with people who gaslight others because they deny they are racist?

Yes @Tabymunz that's what I mean.

I do think that telling someone they don't suffer racial abuse when they do is a form of gaslighting.

I am probably going to louse up explaining this, but I will give it ago.

I don’t have any doubt that racism exists in this country.

I have cited before an incident on a train about 25 years ago. The conductor was black, and he was cocking up giving me my change. I could see he was expecting abuse, and was surprised by the fact I was joking with him. What shocked me was on another day I could have been foul. It would have been nothing to do with the colour of his skin, and all to do with how much pain I was in. He however wouldn’t have known that.

Nor do I have any problem, (or have any right to have one), with BAME people discussing their experiences. Many of them have given me food for thought.

I do have a problem with the people who are jumping on the band wagon, weeping profusely about “white privilege”, and how ashamed they are. I question how much of it will just be talk. A lot of it is making me cringe.

Talk as they say is cheap. Talk won’t change things.

Exactly what will I don’t know.

BLM doesnt mean that white people haven't had bad experiences. I have, I was abused as a child, we lived in a deprived area, my schooling wasnt great, I was around drink and drugs a lot - white privilege doesnt mean my life has been all sunshine and roses. It does mean that my experience hasnt been made worse because of the colour of my skin

The self hatred on this page is disturbing. Why should millions of decent British who have tried their whole lives to respect people of all colours be forced to make a forced confession of white privilege. So much of this nonsense is driven by virtue signalling infants. If you feel so strongly - then you give up your job / promotion / position in life first.

I think it’s the word “Privilege”,

If you’re telling a white working class boy from Boro, from a broken family with no money and no proper schooling that he is “Privileged” then he isn’t going to see the point that is been made - all he will see is someone calling him privileged and he won’t sit right with him. It might sound like I’m using a stereotype but I had this debate with said person.

Btw I’m not saying white privilege doesn’t exist - it does. I’m saying that sometimes the words we use can get people’s backs that they refuse to listen to the point being made.

Khadernawazkhan can you please explain what you mean about self hatred?

When people hold a negative opinion of others based purely on the colour of their skin, then that is wrong, however you dress it up. It doesn't matter what colour they are.

TabbyMumz No that is racial prejudice not racism. Google the difference.

With a large side order of misogyny.

The reason why many people (both white and of colour) will disagree in the U.K. is because the main driver of privilege is money not race. Many of my friends are Asian and do not identify with the BLM movement because they don't experience racism, they are drs, university professors, business owners and fairly wealthy (enough to pay for private school which I could not). A poor white family from a deprived northern town will not understand the term white privilege because they statistically have the equally low opportunity, white working class boys have the lowest social mobility. I'm not denying there's racism, there's bigots out there for sure but in 21st Century Britain it's a lot more nuanced when it comes to the concept of privilege so that is why you won't get a universal answer.

I've been talking to friends a lot over the last few days and it's actually quite interesting that the majority of the people marching I know personally are affluent white young adults and my older Asian friends are bemused at their enthusiasm.

I agree with the Op that it is totally gaslighting because I have lost some life long friends who are usually very intelligent but deny white privilege and deny very real racism because I'm being dramatic. I'm talking friends of 30 plus years.

As CaptainMarvelDanvers said I think some of the problem is with the use of the word privilege. Also, as Isthisfinallyit said, there is a problem trying to get some people to understand the concept of white privilege when they may not have had any conscious advantage from it.

I think what I am concerned about is that people automatically become defensive when they are accused of being privileged when their lives have been hard or they feel let down by government. To then be told they are privileged could lead to a greater division and resentment. I know the answer in an ideal world would be for people to learn and educate themselves but I fear that because it is such an emotive issue the gut reaction is to become defensive.

There are so many things dividing us in society at the moment, much of it exacerbated by social media, and I really don't know what the answer is.

I haven't explained this very well and am probably being idealistic but I just feel that if we could all listen to each other more and not become instantly offended or defensive then maybe we would be able to improve things.

@Madein1995, you have reminded me of an argument I had with my ex BFF of 40 years about being white, poor and coming from a disadvantaged background. She refused to acknowledge the very existence of white privilege despite the fact that I had the exact same upbringing but was of mixed racial heritage and she saw the difference in the way I was treated compared to her when we grew up together in the 70's.

Groliff, yes it was served with a big dollop of misogyny.
My understanding of racism v racial prejudice is of context. An Asian girl suffering something similar to me would also have to deal with the ongoing, background racial crap, it would be a stitch in her tapestry rather than the whole story as it was for me.
The problem for all of us white people is that the majority of us are kind, liberal folk who are rightly horrified by racism. If we accept that racism is a systemic, pervasive force we have to accept that by not challenging it we are part of the problem and that is really hard when all your life you've been of good intention.

Thanks Coka, it wasn't very nice but like I said above it was the whole story for me. Bloody glad I don't have to put up with that level of shite on a daily basis.

As a person who has parents from different countries, I could say what about...

But I won't. Because NOW IS NOT THE TiME. My experiences pale into insignificance in comparison. I stand by all Black people. Your life matters!

I still think this poster nailed it... @Jessyradlett