I'm so frustrated about gaslighting people who deny white privilege

[Moomin8]

Please, someone tell me what to say to people who are so dismissive of racism.

'Nobody is really racist, we are all the same'

'The protesters are the real problem'

'Racism isn't a problem any more' etc

I'm so angry when I hear this. I can't pretend to understand what it's like to be marginalised because of your race but I can see it's a real problem and it's not getting any better,

What do you say to refute people who don't want to change their shitty opinions?

@Paperchainpopp No honestly not casting judgement, just trying to understand. I hope my family see from my actions that I try to treat everyone as equals and will challenge any prejudice I see. Anyway thanks for replying but I'm still not much clearer other than the protests are a public display of anger? Personally I would much rather see concrete proposals for a fairer future.

@Thingybob you sound unsympathetic. Do you actually have ethnic friends or family? If my nana spoke like you I would be worried.
Yes people are angry and frustrated why shouldn’t they be how would you feel if it was your son? Your brother? George did wrong. It’s not your place to decide punishment though not was it the police officers!! What happened to 2 wrongs don’t make a right. Don’t stand by and condone bad behaviour and people in power abusing their positions this is unacceptable just as is your condescending attitude to deliberately pretend you cannot understand my point

There’s no point in arguing with a fool......

Recognising the difference of their experience does not and should not mean that how bad BAME people have it is ignored.

No, but neither should it be used to obfuscate the fact that where all other factors of privilege or disadvantage are equal, a black person or someone from another minority ethnic background will face greater barriers and issues than a white person.

Which is - let’s face it - a privilege. And one that we, as white people, can and should do something about.

Sorry, that ‘we’ was making an assumption about your race. I shouldn’t have done so.

No, but neither should it be used to obfuscate the fact that where all other factors of privilege or disadvantage are equal, a black person or someone from another minority ethnic background will face greater barriers and issues than a white person.

This is really well put.

@JassyRadlett I think you have nailed it there.

A white person from a family with money that goes to a private school and an open door to Eton, has a much difference experience of white privilege than someone that is brought up in poverty, is at a poor state school and their job options are factory work or retail.

We all know that there are many inequities in life. We all know that some people are still disadvantaged, that middle class kids whose parents have connections get apprenticeships and that men still get paid more than women and that women are held to higher standards of behaviour than men.

That isn't what this thread is about though. It's about racist people who don't want to stop being racist or challenge their ways of thinking. And how that perpetuates problems that POC face every day in society.

So why are you trying to make the thread about something else?

JassyRadlett

I agree that it shouldn't be used to obfuscate.

But surely we should be able to recognise both as being correct.

@JassyRadlet exactly

You don't like the answer but that is your bias showing.

What?

Moomin8

fine, I'm out.

Sorry, what is 'my bias'?

But surely we should be able to recognise both as being correct.

No one is denying that that privilege within white British people varies wildly.

But when it is brought up in discussions about BAME (and particularly black) disadvantage or to deny that the relative privilege of having white skin exists in the UK, it is almost always deployed to minimise or deny that white privilege.

White people can be disadvantaged for reasons other than their skin obviously, but a black person in exactly the same position will be even more disadvantaged.

White people cannot experience racism, only racial prejudice.

Mumsnet responses are filled with but... but... but ....but ..Seems people still are not listening.

I agree. I'm fed up with the 'what about me-ism' too.

White people can be disadvantaged for reasons other than their skin obviously, but a black person in exactly the same position will be even more disadvantaged.

This. Yes privilege exists within the white population too, nobody is saying that isn't the case.

I honestly don't know how people can't understand the concept above.

Why is it so painful to acknowledge it? It is not a personal attack, it is just factually correct.

As I said earlier I've been in foster care, victim of sexual assault and disabled as an adult - I have not been privileged as such, but I am perfectly aware have still benefited from white privilege.

Acknowledging that doesn't mean anything I have been through personally is less painful for me. It has no bearing on the fact that had all the same stuff happened and I was black, I would have been further disadvantaged.

A homeless woman is at more risk of sexual assault than a homeless man. Would people accept whataboutery from men about that situation?

OP - I would just firmly state disagreement, and if the person continues, re-state it or say ‘we’ll have to agree to disagree, I’m afraid’. Getting into an argument may cause them to feel persecuted and thereby justified, entrenching their position further.

@Paperchainpopp, For the record yes I do have friends and family from various ethnic minorities and all of those I know are discouraging others from engaging with the BLM protests. The main objection seems to be that they are more concerned about social distancing.

Unsympathetic, decide punishment, condone bad behaviour, condescending attitude, fool

I'm not sure where you got any of that from in my post? Oh well I guess we are not achieving anything by continuing this dialogue.

White privilege is a theory, a concept.

We are white privileged. I understand.
We are white we have to solve the racism problem, this is for us to do no one else. I understand
We are white, we have to educate ourselves better about the atrocities that have happened because of white people over the last 400 years. I understand
We are white, we have to a accept BLM more at this time than anyone else's. I understand.
We are white we must call out the small percentage of white people that are racist or accept we are racist ourselves. I understand.
Is there anything I missed?
Oh:
We must support the protests, even in a serious pandemic that could cause thousands more elderly and vulnerable from all backgrounds to die Oh and the violence is ok at protest because all that matters is BL now.

This is the way forward?
Give someone, not necessarily at fault or responsible, a long list of things they must do, because of a past they didn't have any control over, does not create positivity.

I am defeated.
You hit the nail on the head Tornadoofsouls.
I'm going to dig a big hole.

@BakedCam can you expand on what you mean by that?

YABU to use the term “gaslighting” to describe a situation where people disagree over the existence of a concept. It’s a difference in political thought. It’s a very, very long way from gaslighting, which is a sustained pattern of mental abuse that can make people suicidal. Disagreeing with someone over a belief is not gaslighting.

disagreeing with someone over a belief is not gaslighting

No, but denying that people have every day experiences of being marginalised due to their race is gaslighting. It's saying 'you're imagining it. Stop complaining' and that is what some people do.

Theres a book called how to argue with a racist. Ive kust seen it recommended on a fb post of books to read to educate yourself about racism.

[quote C130]@BakedCam can you expand on what you mean by that?[/quote]
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

I know it is Wikipedia, but it broadly explains and links to studies of white privilege, C130.