To wonder why schools are saying they’re not allowed to do live lessons

[Plinkplonkplank]

Because they’ve just started doing them at my ds’s state secondary. We had to fill in an online permission form. So it is possible after all.

Anyone who says schools are making excuses would you like my job for a week
The teacher bashing on here is an absolute joke. Get out of your own arses and become a teacher if you think your so amazing. And also become a DSL then you will realise how ‘easy’ it would be do to online lessons.

Private I think teachers do have the right to say no to recording lessons. Nobody should be forced to publish their name, face and workplace on the internet.

@MsTSwift I think your DC'S go to the same school as my DD. No online, no recorded, no telephone calls and barely a response to messages. We do get blog posts of her teacher baking, sunbathing with a book and deciding what to cook for dinner and if we're lucky some White Rose maths (that we probably gave her weeks ago) by 10am.

@Noconceptofnormal

I haven't read 21 pages to know what the excuses are as to why online lessons aren't happening.

But like probably every other private school my dc's gave been doing online lessons.

• For those who say their broadband connection isn't good enough, the teachers at my dc's school did the lessons from the school, problem solved.

• For those who say the have children to look after at home, well they don't have to as schools and nurseries are open to keyworkers' children.

• For those concerned about what might happen in the background of some people's homes. Here's a few things - teachers can mute particular children or even the whole class if this is an issue and turn off cameras if necessary. Plus if it was a choice between the school providing teaching but my child potentially hearing another parent swear, I'd still take the teaching.

• For those concerned about teachers ending up being filmed or on memes etc... Really, how big a problem is this really? Maybe in a few rough secondaries but I don't think this would be wide spread any more than a child filming a teacher in school and doing it. I just don't believe it.

• For those who say children don't have enough laptops etc at home, again I don't believe this is an issue for the vast majority of children, most people have a tablet or smartphone they could use (a couple of times my dc did their lesson using my smartphone when I couldn't get the broadband to work). For the minority that don't, I think a plea to the community for donations of old laptops or tablets would have been responded to, loans from the schools, people raising money for this would have all happened.

I do understand that the private sector have it easier, they have more resources, smaller classes and parents who are motivated to support learning. But it feels to me like a lot of excuses from teachers who feel entitled to choose whether they do their job or not which has led to a race to the bottom.

As I've said in a previous thread, teachers at my school all came in to teach, no one was shielding, even those over 50. But they know that if they don't provide a service the school will go under and they won't have a job.

If only there was the same commitment in the state sector.

I posted this on p13: (Mine get a video explaining the concepts with 1 or 2 tasks on, a quiz at the end and an exam question every 2 weeks which is marked. They can email me anytime and I usually respond within 10 minutes unless I'm eating or it's after 9pm. I don't see why that is worse than live when you consider the below points). BTW since all anyone on MN cares about is personal anecdotes, I know a teacher who left state teaching to go to a well regarded private school. Last time I spoke to her she said she has to work less hard than she used to in state.

1. I live in a rural area. The broadband is shocking. It's completely dropped out for over an hour twice this week. This hasn't been a problem because I'm recording videos (no images of me, just talking over slides) and I can upload them anytime but it would be a problem if I was livestreaming. Even when it's working properly it can support one video call. I have 3 kids + me. Yes I could go into school, but what about the kids? If they all had to attend live lessons we would have to make a choice which of the 3 could attend.

2. I''m not convinced that live is better than video + quizzes + exam questions + feedback from exam questions. Some of my kids (mostly those invisible middle kids, but also some of the lower ability ones) are doing much better work than normal because they're not worried about drawing attention to themselves so will ask for help. They wouldn't do this in the live lesson.

3. An average class has 2 carers in it. In my form alone I have one looking after 6 younger kids and one looking after 3. They are cooking, cleaning and trying to homeschool them. At the moment they can complete some work after the adults are home. If they had to attend live they would fall further behind.

4. Private schools might be doing zoom/teams but they have much smaller classes. Just as in normal times smaller classes = more individualised attention

5. Not all students have access to a device and/or internet access. Yes, most have a phone, but it's not always a smartphone and even if it is they might not have data. Some have to share with their siblings/parents and so have to do their work in the evening (or even in the middle of the night, some of my students must be nocturnal judging by the times of their emails)

6. Some students are not allowed unsupervised access to the internet due to safeguarding/bullying issues.

7. Sending videos of teachers is a safeguarding risk. They can download the image/video and manipulate without anyone knowing. Once it's in the public domain it would be very difficult to track down the perpetrator. That's if we're even made aware of it. Yes, this is possible in normal times but it's much harder to take a photo/video when we are always on the lookout for phones and they know they will be confiscated. As mentioned by a PP some teachers are hiding from abusive exes or relatives and it is a real danger to them if these images enter the public domain.

8. Getting 30+ kids to pay attention at the same time is an art form when they're all in the same room as you. If they're not allowed cameras on (which they shouldn't for safeguarding ) then how do we know they aren't otherwise engaged whilst the live lesson is occurring.

9. Behaviour - as teachers we are always challenging racist, homophobic, sexist etc comments. With voice changing apps and 30+ students present I'm not sure this could always be adequately enforced.

Private schools are a completely different environment. Levels of access and engagement (both parents an students) are completely different. I am sure some of their pupils have hardships but fewer of them will be caring for siblings/parents or dealing with substance misuse, unemployment, poverty, gang violence etc. Or have such poor English speaking skills that they cannot access lessons easily. Or have relatives or parents in prison that due to the current situation they are unable to see.

Private school pupils have always had a massive advantage over state. It's just been highlighted by the current situation. If you're angry about it now, you should have been angry before.

- For those who say children don't have enough laptops etc at home, again I don't believe this is an issue for the vast majority of children, most people have a tablet or smartphone they could use (a couple of times my dc did their lesson using my smartphone when I couldn't get the broadband to work). For the minority that don't, I think a plea to the community for donations of old laptops or tablets would have been responded to, loans from the schools, people raising money for this would have all happened
One of the schools I worked in had a whole non-teaching welfare team in place because the home lives of many students were full of challenges, and believe me not having a laptop per child to do online learning wasn't one. The idea that if students don't have a laptop then they could just use a tablet or smartphone is laughable when in some areas in my region parents are struggling to feed their children and keep the lights on. In my friend's rural school the broadband doesn't cope well with streaming so it certainly doesn't cope with a parent on a conference call and two children learning on video lessons.

But of course, it's only a minority who haven't got several devices going spare, haven't got reliable broadband that can cope with content heavy processes etc.

I'm in favour of schools using a range of methods to develop education provision for their contexts but really wish the dominant middle class voices in Mumsnet could stop either playing the disadvantaged card or minimising disadvantage in order to promote a course of action that only benefits privileged students.

I give up.

Noconcept FIFTY PERCENT of the children at my school do not have an adequate device and/or internet connection. You have no idea about the way some communities live; about how far removed your private school is from this.

You don’t get to judge what we are doing. The vast majority of schools have found creative ways round this in order to serve their community. You opted out of the state sector, which tells me a lot. Maybe you should opt out of giving your opinions also.

I'm in favour of schools using a range of methods to develop education provision for their contexts but really wish the dominant middle class voices in Mumsnet could stop either playing the disadvantaged card or minimising disadvantage in order to promote a course of action that only benefits privileged students.

So true. I've been trying to articulate this on here for weeks but haven't been able to find the words. Of course we are all focused on our own situations but most of us are so unaware of what things are like for those outside of our sphere of experience. To be fair, if I didn't teach in an area that's very different to the one I live in, I probably would be guilty of making a lot of false assumptions too.

SmileEachDay I'm still entertained by the idea that for the minority who don't have several devices on hand, just ask the community and people can donate their spare ones.
Next up - Why do some schools not have a fully functional minibus, surely the parent rep could arrange a whip round to cover the repairs or a new one?

DippyAvocado
It winds me up and I know I shouldn't bite but some people on here don't just have no idea, they have no intention of giving a damn.

Then again on here you also get people lamenting that it might be irresponsible to bring a child into the world when you only have a household income of £80,000.

What this again??

At my school, we have been delivering a full curriculum of on-line learning from the off.

Lola and Staff

Shit. I had a whip round but I spent it all on roller skates.

I thought the email said in line learning.

🤦🏻‍♀️

I don't know what the obsession with online live lessons is. Why is it so important to have a live lesson? It doesn't work for all learners, especially if they have to share devices.

Our dcs have their work posted on the VLE with prerecorded videos or presentations, which will have the instructions on whatever task they need to do for that lesson. The teachers are contactable if they have any questions by the message function or email if they need any help and so far, they have worked well.

Also, some of their extra curricular activities have moved around which means dd may have a clash if there was an live lesson taking place.

What is the point of this thread anyway? Is it to say
"I told you so".

It is possible to do live lessons, has anyone actually said the possibility doesn't exist? Just because it's possible doesn't make it the best choice for every school community.

I'm happy with the provision that's been made by DD1's school - she's 15 and in Y10. It's mostly PowerPoints or similar but with the occasional live q&a session. Teachers are providing excellent feedback on all submitted work and DD is definitely making progress.

In a school a couple of miles from DD's Y10 are going to have more live lessons. Parents have to agree to be within earshot of the lesson as well as ensuring their child does not attend the lesson from their bedroom. Were DD at that school, she wouldn't be able to attend the live lessons because DH and I are both teachers and back in school (so not within earshot). When we've been working from home, she's attended any live lessons in her bedroom because DH is teaching from downstairs - the kitchen has no wifi connectivity - DD2 is often at the kitchen table (working offline) and I'm working in a bedroom upstairs (my school laptop can't do the virtual backgrounds for most of the platforms). As two teacher-parents living in a fairly ordinary terrace, we'd be unable to facilitate DD's participation in live lessons because of the conditions the school is putting in place. That's without any safeguarding, IT access or childcare inequalities at either end.

I find the attacks on my post so defeatist and depressing.

I posted my experience of my dc's school so parents realise it doesn't have to be like this. Of course a private school will provide on the whole a more comprehensive experience, but that doesn't mean state schools can't at least try and do something. Many just haven't from what I am reading.

To address some points -

• Captain Tom raised a few million quid for the NHS, I truly believe if there had been, or still was a similar campaign to raise money for laptops (and dongles for those without Internet) for kids to learn people would donate money or equipment they didn't need, IT experts would donate their skills. People have rallied to the needs of those that have needed help in this crisis.

• even if children are sharing devices for lessons, live lessons can be recorded and accessed in turn. It's not a reason to not provide lessons.

• I acknowledge some children have caring responsibilities or are living in chaotic conditions or extreme poverty and may not be able to access lessons because of this. But sadly that is the case for their whole education, and shouldn't be used as a reason to not provide lessons for anyone. I'm not saying that resources shouldn't be intensively deployed to ensure these disadvantaged children catch up and I've read that this is a policy being considered by the government.

• yes teachers can't discipline children if they're not paying attention, but again this shouldn't be a reason why the children that do pay attention should miss out.

Some schools will obviously face much bigger challenges than others, and those challenges are valid, I went to a school where there were a lot of those challenges. But my opinion is that a lot of schools could be doing more than they are, that's all. But then I chose to privately educate my kids, so what do I know.

My school has been doing it from the start they had it up and running within two weeks. I was very impressed. They use Microsoft teams.

I posted my experience of my dc's school so parents realise it doesn't have to be like this. Of course a private school will provide on the whole a more comprehensive experience, but that doesn't mean state schools can't at least try and do something. Many just haven't from what I am reading

So the state system just isn't trying hard enough?

You have nothing of relevance to advise.

I think the kids people say will be playing fortnight non stop are the same ones that people claim are so disadvantaged they don't have adequate devices or connection. Its a phallacy.
Teachers should be doing everything they can to get their words out there. Shame on you hiding your faces or worrying about controlling the class. If someone doesn't pay attention, so what. If they play up, mute or kick them... dont use zoom though. If only one child can be bothered to tune in, give the lesson anyway.

@ProfessorSillyStuff

I think the kids people say will be playing fortnight non stop are the same ones that people claim are so disadvantaged they don't have adequate devices or connection. Its a phallacy. Teachers should be doing everything they can to get their words out there. Shame on you hiding your faces or worrying about controlling the class. If someone doesn't pay attention, so what. If they play up, mute or kick them... dont use zoom though. If only one child can be bothered to tune in, give the lesson anyway.

I am doing everything I can. Video of every lesson (me talking over slides, no they don't see my face but I don't see what seeing my ugly mug is going to add to their learning experience), instant feedback quiz at the end to give both them and me feedback on what's understood. 1 or 2 tasks to do, kids asked to email a photo of these, any that do are commented on. Exam question every fortnight which is marked. Kids can, and do, email me any questions and will get a reply within half an hour (normally 5-10 minutes) unless I'm eating or I've gone to bed.

Noconcept - I wasn't attacking your post, just trying to explain my viewpoint.

To address your last post:

If you want someone to raise funds for schools then why not start a campaign yourself

- even if children are sharing devices for lessons, live lessons can be recorded and accessed in turn. It's not a reason to not provide lessons.

I am providing lessons (see start of my post). They're just not live. EEF research (admittedly limited) says it's the quality of the lesson, not whether it's online or not.

- I acknowledge some children have caring responsibilities or are living in chaotic conditions or extreme poverty and may not be able to access lessons because of this. But sadly that is the case for their whole education, and shouldn't be used as a reason to not provide lessons for anyone. I'm not saying that resources shouldn't be intensively deployed to ensure these disadvantaged children catch up and I've read that this is a policy being considered by the government.

See above, I am providing lessons, just not live.

- yes teachers can't discipline children if they're not paying attention, but again this shouldn't be a reason why the children that do pay attention should miss out.

They're not missing out, I'm still providing lessons, just not live. Lots of my quiet, studious kids are doing much more and much better work than normal because they don't have to waste time waiting for everyone else to do stuff. Live lessons would negate this. Live is not best for everyone.

Some schools will obviously face much bigger challenges than others, and those challenges are valid, I went to a school where there were a lot of those challenges. But my opinion is that a lot of schools could be doing more than they are, that's all. But then I chose to privately educate my kids, so what do I know.

Some schools could be doing more. Some teachers could be doing more. I don't know how many because I only have first hand experience of 2. There is somewhere between handing out a few crappy worksheets and live lessons. Yes some kids would do better with live lessons, but some would do better without. No one size fits all.

I find the attacks on my post so defeatist and depressing

It's not defeatist or depressing to point out that the suggestions from someone who has never taught and has children in private school might not know as much about planning education provision in a pandemic than people who do the job.

Saying you're sharing to help parents realise 'it doesn't have to be like this' seems a little disingenuous given you're comparing a well funded private system with affluent families with the state system.

You suggested that it's only a minority that don't have laptops, that those without laptops just use any number of spare devices around the house, that a community whip round would solve the device issue, now you're saying that if Captain Tom has raised millions for the NHS charities then there's no reason the same wouldn't work for schools.

Would you say health professionals raising issues of PPE are defeatist and depressing, need to be more focused on solutions because a pensioner has raised millions to compensate for awful government planning?
If yes, you'd be unreasonable.
If no, then why do the same to teachers who are also responding to poor government planning.

You say 'but what do I know' and the reality is not enough about the varied contexts of different schools and not enough about learning if you're still trying to peddle the line that not doing video/live lessons is not providing lessons.

Whilst it may be good for people outside education to sit on mumsnet saying 'but my child's private school does... State school teachers just don't want to teach...', the reality is there's many ways to skin a cat, and not doing video/live lessons doesn't equal poor provision.

Noconceptofnormal

I find the attacks on my post so defeatist and depressing

Have you read the whole thread?

Some state schools ARE doing live lessons and very successfully. It can and is being done in some places. It is not all state schools/teachers who are refusing to add live lessons to the other material they are providing.

I find the attacks on my post so defeatist and depressing

It’s not about you.

live lessons ... so every child in the household needs their own computer, your internet connection needs to be good. We struggle in the middle of London with Virgin!! Internet goes off throughout day. Also where is the teacher delivering the lessons from? One of mine is a secondary teacher. We are a household of 6. 3 working from home. But its still noisy, I have to hoover, my work involves listening to records during the day, headphones not suitable. On top of that, I am not happy about the prospect of her going into school to teach and then back home. One family member has asthma. Plus us parents are over 60. If she goes in we are all at increased risk and it will be even longer until I can visit my 87 yr old Dad. I don't want her in school mixing with all those other families, because basically thats what it is.

This is also highlighting the gap between private (money) and state schools... all schools should be equal. Private schools can do online lessons as their kids all have their own stuff (I am sure the give scholarship kids what they need) Plus people have paid so unless they do refunds they are legally obliged to deliver lessons I assume. So many different angles, its not a simple problem very complex.

Some state schools ARE doing live lessons and very successfully. It can and is being done in some places. It is not all state schools/teachers who are refusing to add live lessons to the other material they are providing

I find things on here very black and white with the 'teachers are refusing' as most of the time those making those claims selectively avoid a sensible discussion about why some schools are/aren't doing particular things.

To give examples of some secondary schools I know:
One is open with lots on site because they have a lot of vulnerable children and a full team of welfare and safeguarding staff employed year round.
One is doing live lessons because they have a tech programme for the school so all children have devices
One is doing learning materials and lesson through an online system and teachers are online to chat to students through the platform. Paper materials are provided to the surprising number of children who don't have access to this. All children get the same materials.
Another is all paper materials.

None of them are right, none of them are wrong.

Just on Mumsnet there's a good number of pointy elbows types who manage to say 'my (already privileged) child is disadvantaged because another school is doing live lessons, my child's school should do live lessons instead of putting materials onto a learning platform so nobody is disadvantaged' and then when people talk about the issues of live lessons and explain why materials on a learning platform and printed might be better for the school say 'well just because some students don't have access to devices, stable WiFi etc doesn't mean others shouldn't have it'. This translates to crying disadvantage and unfairness when it pertains to their already privileged child and the suddenly ignoring educational disadvantage once their child is back in the advantaged group.

Sounds like you're doing a lot and the children are lucky to have the service you're providing in lieu of something better, but I guess the role of teacher has evolved and you're no longer comfortable with the job.
This reminds me of the uproar at Muslim teachers "hiding" their face with wearing hijab in the classroom, and students not being able to recieve the lesson well. Are the ones that criticised it also the ones who will fight for teachers to be allowed to hide their faces now?
My kids aren't in school so I don't have a personal issue with it. I'm amazed that you guys do such a difficult job for the pittance you're given. I always assumed you were doing it because it was your lifes meaning and purpose to teach but I guess not!
For those who have children of school age and were counting on the school system to educate them I send my heartfelt best wishes. I really do feel for you and your kids and think each of you should now abandon the schools, as if they aren't providing the services then why should they all be getting paid? They've clearly abandoned your kids, because to them it's just a paycheck after all.

Professor

That’s a load of goady nonsense, but a great example to use when people claim there is no such thing as teacher bashing.