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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

902 replies

User273648 · 24/05/2020 08:00

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

OP posts:
HeatherIV · 24/05/2020 21:50

Is it even possible to diagnose deafness or blindness in utero?

If eyes or ears were missing, possibly yes. Otherwise no.

HeatherIV · 24/05/2020 21:54

I struggle to see how they eliminated ds in Denmark when in the UK ds is often not picked up until after birth. Are they offering a test we don't?

I don't think we should aim to eradicate ds. But women need the information and the opportunity to make the best choice for them and their family. They also need to be aware of the full spectrum of ds. Whenever I see a ds advocate parent the child is always mild to moderately impaired. The child is never at the sever end of the spectrum.

changeitupagain · 24/05/2020 22:12

"It should be the mother's choice. If all mothers choose not to have children with down's or children who are deaf or blind or both that's fine. If none make that choice to abort that's fine too but I do not want the mother's choice to be removed."

This. We shouldn't be aiming to 'preserve' disabilities any more than we should be aiming to eradicate them on a population level.

If every individual woman who's foetus shows, for example, cerebral palsy chooses an abortion and in turn the UK has a 0% rate or cerebral palsy this is not a bad thing anymore than it is a good thing. It's just each individual has made their choice based on what's best for them and it has in turn meant no babies have been born with cerebral palsy. If however, the next year one woman chooses to have a baby despite having cerebral palsy and thus the rate in the Uk goes up this is once again neither a bad or good thing. They should not be applauded as 'better' or 'braver' than all the woman who chose to abort a foetus with the same condition nor should they be regarded as 'worse' or 'selfish' for choosing to have a baby with a life limiting condition. They have just chosen what is right for them. As every woman should have the right to do so.

SonEtLumiere · 24/05/2020 22:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pointythings · 24/05/2020 22:30

Xenia and changeitup well said.

There are some people who almost romanticise Downs. That's just as bad as looking down on it - we all need to be realistic. The prevalence of dementia in people with DS as they age is massively higher than in people who do not have DS. In people with DS over 50, it's 50%. That's a horrendous care requirement, and just at the time when that person's own parents are more likely to need care themselves. When you have the choice to make about whether or not to terminate, that is one of the major factors to bear in mind.

Abbccc · 24/05/2020 22:59

In Denmark all children with Down syndrome have been eliminated. In Iceland 98% of babies diagnosed with Down syndrome are eliminated, in France 77% and the USA the lowest at 67%.

I assume you mean that babies with DS are no longer born in Denmark, not that they have actually killed all children with DS! But is that a food thing? I can't imagine that all those pregnant women chose an abortion because it"s the kindest thing or because they felt they couldn't being up a child with DS. There must be a lot of pressure to abort in those countries and it must be really hard to decide to keep your DS baby when you know that you are in a minority and that people will question your choice (which I assume they would do if the vast majority abort).

Abbccc · 24/05/2020 23:01

GOOD thing! Not food thing, sorry.

Butterflywings1 · 24/05/2020 23:16

I agree with their legal bid. Whether the baby has a disability or not the cut off point should be the same. Later abortions are cruel and a disabled baby has as much a right to live as a non disabled baby. I wish them luck in their bid.

JudyCoolibar · 24/05/2020 23:23

Whether the baby has a disability or not the cut off point should be the same. Later abortions are cruel and a disabled baby has as much a right to live as a non disabled baby.

Even when you know that baby will suffer massively at birth, will live maybe at most a couple of weeks in agony before inevitably dying anyway?

InvisibleWomenMustBeRead · 24/05/2020 23:29

Women should have complete autonomy over their own bodies - it's so mysoginistic and typical of a patriarchal society being ingrained in the masses that this ever comes up for debate. Shocking and I really hope they lose the case.

buildingbridge · 24/05/2020 23:33

Having a child/ any child is the start of it. No child is a given*. Your neuro-typical child may suffer from mental health issues down the line... or get involved in an accident, have an unexpected stroke, develop an illness etc..do drugs...

In life, we no choice but to look after own no matter what they hardships bring, whether we have the financial resources, mental state of mind or not.

I'm not going to discuss the abortion as that's very emotive. But I thought it was good to point out that whatever child you bring into the world.. even neuro-typical.. is not a given and anything could happen.

InvisibleWomenMustBeRead · 24/05/2020 23:36

Couldn't agree more @buildingbridge - but that's an entirely separate issue to a woman having autonomy over her own body.

buildingbridge · 24/05/2020 23:40

Invisible I didn't want to bring up the abortion as it's very emotive. But my heart reaches out to those mothers who had to consider a late-term abortion. I cannot imagine it was easy going through that.

Wheninrometoday · 24/05/2020 23:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

InvisibleWomenMustBeRead · 25/05/2020 00:07

Not the same thing at all @Wheninrometoday & I imagine you know that (or at least I would hope you do if you set aside the patriarchy and simply think about it for a second).

sashh · 25/05/2020 04:42

This isn’t going to happen. What would be better is ensuring that prenatal tests are done as early as possible so women have time to make the decision that is right for them.

Oh Heidi is (ot was) campaigning about that, she doesn't want earlier tests because...

Butterflywings1 · 25/05/2020 07:45

@JudyCoolibar having a medical issue incompatible with life is different to having a disability.

MangoFeverDream · 25/05/2020 08:52

I can't imagine that all those pregnant women chose an abortion because it"s the kindest thing or because they felt they couldn't being up a child with DS. There must be a lot of pressure to abort in those countries

I wonder. I know the UK it’s often said that it is the financial pressures that lead to a decision to terminate. But presumably Denmark has a stronger social safety net so I wonder the reasons there?

For me, I have to admit that I want a child as free from disability as possible (I know accidents happen, etc etc) so would terminate regardless of financial means ....

MangoFeverDream · 25/05/2020 08:55

Also, I came across this interesting article in the Atlantic about third trimester medical terminations in Israel and how they interpret ‘disabled enough’ for termination at the late stage.

It gave a pro-choice American doctor some pause: www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/594151/

nolongersurprised · 25/05/2020 09:10

Many women with Down Syndrome will be fertile, they have a much higher chance of having a baby with DS (up to 50%).

If Heidi chooses to have children and is fertile these are real choices she will be faced with herself. She doesn’t get to project her own beliefs on others, though.

HeatherIV · 25/05/2020 09:21

I agree with their legal bid. Whether the baby has a disability or not the cut off point should be the same. Later abortions are cruel and a disabled baby has as much a right to live as a non disabled baby. I wish them luck in their bid.

It's not about right to live. It's about a mother having the choice of whether she wants to raise a disabled child. It's about disabled children not being born into families unable or unwilling to cope with them.

I agree a disabled child has as much right to life as an able bodied child. But in a typical pregnancy you have around 18-20 weeks to decide if you want to keep that child. For a disabled child you may not find out until 20 weeks or even later that there is an issue, then you may have to wait longer for confirmation and diagnosis of likely outcomes. Even with downs, you may find out at 12 weeks your baby has it and decide to go ahead anyway, then find out at 20 weeks there are heart abnormalities - you then need to reassess your decision.

If you take away the right to terminate on grounds of disability after 24 weeks, you take away many women's rights to choose to whether to keep an ill or disabled baby. Because you simply don't always know before 24 weeks.

Having a disabled child is also not somthing anyone can deal with. I was surprised how much medical care I was expected to administer to my son. Stuff I am completely unqualified for - like changing an NG tube and administering feeds and medicine via the tube. Monitoring o2 levels, providing physio therapy, I've had to learn makaton to then teach to my child. What happenes to the children whose parents can't do those things? They end up in hospital long term because basic medical needs can't be met at home. Then when at home they don't get their additional needs met by ill equipt parents. That's not fair on the child.

As someone said people romanticise downs as all smiley little faces. Those kids grow up, into often hard to mange adults shunned by society. Many children are in and out of hospital frequently. I've seen a downs child depressed and in pain because he had to have a gi tube fitted and was no longer allowed food and drink - the tube kept getting painfully infected requiring multiple ops. I've seem a downs child regress to newborn because they were having multiple fits per day. Life isn't always smiles and joy for them.

And there is little to no support for parents. Downs isn't even classified as a disability anymore - even though I've never met a child that doesn't have some issue. So the parents struggle to acsess benefits, support and therapies. Even someone like me whose child is profoundly disabled struggles to get help. I've been fighting for respite for over a year and still getting nothing as there are no sutible placements or carers.

How about get the children that are already here proper support before forcing more disables children into this world.

Soubriquet · 25/05/2020 09:26

Agreed ^

If a mother doesn’t wish to keep a child with disabilities whilst pregnant, she should have the right to terminate

You’re either pro-choice or not

Not pro-choice up to a point

MangoFeverDream · 25/05/2020 09:32

You’re either pro-choice or not

Not pro-choice up to a point

Most people are pro-choice up to a point. We as a society have to decide where that point is, and it is usually around fetal viability.

I understand Heidi believes this is unfair and dehumanising. It is, but the immense burden on parents outweighs her concerns imo and most seem to agree.

LaurieMarlow · 25/05/2020 09:35

How about get the children that are already here proper support before forcing more disables children into this world.

Yup.

But we all know that this isn’t about that.

YinMnBlue · 25/05/2020 09:51

Later abortions are cruel and a disabled baby has as much a right to live as a non disabled baby

Did you read the account by a mother in that linked Guardian article? Where told her unborn baby would not be able to walk, talk, swallow or move much, she asked if the baby would ‘only be able to sleep’ and the doctor said “babies like yours are too uncomfortable to sleep “.

Did you see the intensely moving re-run of the documentary “The Boy Whose Skin Fell Off”? Both the man and his mother said that had tests been available they would rather he had been terminated before birth than endure the constant pain of his life.

We need to be very careful about the mindset between ideological sanctimoniousness and true compassion.

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