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AIBU?

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Original poster

Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

902 replies

User273648 · 24/05/2020 08:00

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

OP posts:
LaurieMarlow · 24/05/2020 12:27

men and women should be able to choose whether they act as parents.

That contradicts women’s rights over their bodies.

CovidicusRex · 24/05/2020 12:27

@JasHarts yes, that’s what I’m saying. There are no consequences for men who decide to opt out of parenthood same as there aren’t any consequences for women that choose to do so (excluding the rare instance where abortions go wrong but that so rare these days).

JasHarts · 24/05/2020 12:27

And down to biology they have to make those choices at different times
Exactly men have to walk away once the child is born or during the unwanted pregnancy

Xenia · 24/05/2020 12:28

Chipperfish, I agree.

MarieQueenofScots · 24/05/2020 12:29

Exactly men have to walk away once the child is born or during the unwanted pregnancy

And I’ll ask again, do you think they don’t?

In any effect you know that’s not what I meant. The SINGLE chance men get to choose whether to risk a pregnancy is before they have sex. If they choose to have PIV sex they are acknowledging a pregnancy risk and therefore should deal with the consequences that arise.

Women have another chance to deal with those consequences in a different way.

JasHarts · 24/05/2020 12:31

@MarieQueenofScots and I’ll answer AGAIN, I KNOW they do walk away. That’s what I’m saying.. rightly so if they don’t want the child!

SweetRuby · 24/05/2020 12:32

Janmyer someone with a learning disability can have a fulfilling life also. and yes there is mild autism, the same way there is mild learning disability. Just because mild is used doesn't mean the disability isn't serious, it's a category level in a wide range. I also think it's terrible that posters presume that Heidi doesn't understand what she is talking about because of her level of intelligence. Just because a person has a learning disability doesn't mean they don't understand.

JanMeyer · 24/05/2020 12:32

but I do think that suggesting that autism universally will significantly impair any autistic person's life is misleading.

Not really, if it doesn't impair a person's life then they won't get a diagnosis. It's impact on your life might be mild now, but that a) doesn't make the autism mild and b) if you had no impairment you wouldn't have gotten a diagnosis. If it doesn't cause any significant impairment why do we even bother diagnosing autism?

So autism can be 'mild', or even beneficial in some cases.

Yeah, i really hate that, the whole "autism is my superpower" crap. How in the hell can a developmental disorder be beneficial?

MarieQueenofScots · 24/05/2020 12:33

Jas

Ah so men’s right to consequence free sex is more important in your hierarchy of morality than a child?

Says it all. As I thought.

You don’t need to tag me, I’m reading the thread. Unfortunately I still get notifications despite turning them off so would appreciate if you didn’t thank you.

CrystalTipped · 24/05/2020 12:34

I’m saying that as men have no say in whether or not the foetus is aborted (and rightly so), they should at least have the choice to walk away.

I agree but they also shouldn’t be forced to stick around for a child they don’t want.

Did we fall into some parallel universe where men are forced to stay in their children's lives?

Or are we still in our our current one where men get to walk away from parenthood whenever they feel like it? Confused

If what you mean is that men shouldn't be financially responsible for raising their children - well many aren't, far too many.

MintyMabel · 24/05/2020 12:34

Autism isn't just "having a bit of trouble socialising."

But it is a condition that varies in how it impacts on a person and some can be more affected than others. “Significant” is subjective, but something can significantly impact and still be on the milder end of a scale.

JasHarts · 24/05/2020 12:35

@MarieQueenofScots I don’t tag you for your benefit, I tag you to make it easier for everyone reading the thread so they know whose post I’m responding to

rhowton · 24/05/2020 12:35

My DH and I had decided we would terminate if our baby was diagnosed with any life altering disabilities. It's not just life altering for them, but for you, your other children and your family. I actually had a harmony at 14 weeks due to them not being able to measure the fluid at the back of the baby's neck at the 12 week scan.

MangoFeverDream · 24/05/2020 12:35

i really hate that, the whole "autism is my superpower" crap. How in the hell can a developmental disorder be beneficial?

I know in the US that there is a big push to detect autism in utero. I’d hope they could actually accomplish this; I’ve seen families impacted by severely autistic children in many of the same ways and would also support termination in these circumstances.

But it’d become yet another moral minefield ....

HeatherIV · 24/05/2020 12:36

This isn’t going to happen. What would be better is ensuring that prenatal tests are done as early as possible so women have time to make the decision that is right for them.

Yhe tests are restricted by the babies development. You can't see if the heart or brain has developed correctly until its finished developing and the baby is bigger.

JanMeyer · 24/05/2020 12:36

someone with a learning disability can have a fulfilling life also. and yes there is mild autism, the same way there is mild learning disability. Just because mild is used doesn't mean the disability isn't serious, it's a category level in a wide range.

Yeah, i know people with learning disabilities can lead a fulfilling life, that was literally my point. And no, there really isn't such a thing as "mild autism."
Not having a learning disability doesn't make it "mild." Passing for "normal" and not visibly looking autistic doesn't make it mild. Being verbal doesn't make it mild.
Show me the diagnostic criteria for mild autism. You can't, because it doesn't exist.

MarieQueenofScots · 24/05/2020 12:37

I don’t tag you for your benefit, I tag you to make it easier for everyone reading the thread so they know whose post I’m responding to

If only there were several other ways to do that and make it clear JasHarts.

I’ve used twice just in this post - anyone having difficulty understanding to whom I’m responding?

Do you really want to be THAT petty....?

Timekeeper1 · 24/05/2020 12:39

I would definitely terminate, and I make no apologies for it. It is what amniocentesis testing is for, to prevent these births. That's the whole point of the tests. I also think it is wrong and selfish to knowingly bring a child with a disability into the world. I say knowingly, because of course we don't all know of some disabilities until the child is born, but we have these tests, and when we do know, then the right thing imo is to terminate. Because it's not just about you as a mother, it is about any siblings that will be expected to take care of the child when the parents pass away and about an over-stretched disability and health care system already, without knowingly adding to it.

JanMeyer · 24/05/2020 12:40

But it is a condition that varies in how it impacts on a person and some can be more affected than others. “Significant” is subjective, but something can significantly impact and still be on the milder end of a scale.

Yes, but a person doesn't get diagnosed just because they "have a bit of trouble socialising." That wouldn't fulfill the triad of impairments. It affects people in different ways, i get that, but no, autism isn't just having trouble socialising. That alone wouldn't get a person a diagnosis.

JasHarts · 24/05/2020 12:40

i really hate that, the whole "autism is my superpower" crap. How in the hell can a developmental disorder be beneficial?
When I was doing my nursing course, we were told that there was research done into why autism hasn’t been victim of evolution and it basically said that a lot of traits of autism such as a deep interest in certain niche subjects like science has meant that humanity has benefited from autistic people’s work. They think if autistic people didn’t have certain desirable traits then autism would’ve been bred out of mankind ages and ages ago. I’m making it a lot more simple than it was but it was definitely an interesting idea

MangoFeverDream · 24/05/2020 12:40

tests are restricted by the babies development. You can't see if the heart or brain has developed correctly until its finished developing and the baby is bigger

I’m talking more about Downs Syndrome which can be screened as early as 10 weeks with the NIPT, where you could then get an amnio at 15 weeks-ish for confirmation.

Of course there are plenty of other conditions which show up much later. But we are mostly talking about this particular disability

JasHarts · 24/05/2020 12:42

I’ve used twice just in this post - anyone having difficulty understanding to whom I’m responding?

Do you really want to be THAT petty....?

Bloody hell chill out I didn’t realise you could just make the name bold and not have to do the @ sign.

SweetRuby · 24/05/2020 12:46

Janmyer you missed my point, having a mild learning disability doesn't mean the disability isn't serious, the same way that autism being classed as mild makes it any less serious. My whole point was if there was a test that could diagnose autism in the womb but not the severity would people think it's ok to abort then at full term. Or if they could diagnose conditions like dyspraxia before birth would it then be ok to abort full term babies. Heidis point is that she thinks it's wrong to be able to abort to full term because of down syndrome. I was just wondering people who think her view is wrong would feel the same if the disability mentioned was autism or dyspraxia.

JanMeyer · 24/05/2020 12:47

They think if autistic people didn’t have certain desirable traits then autism would’ve been bred out of mankind ages and ages ago. I’m making it a lot more simple than it was but it was definitely an interesting idea.

I'm familiar with that line of thinking. I find it frustrating though because people expect you to be a genius or to have a really useful special interest. I don't, and I'm sick of people (including those who should really know better) asking about it. When you can't even get a supermarket job it really galls to hear people talk about what a benefit autism has been to mankind. Ugh, there are even autistic people who believe autism is the next step in evolution.

HeatherIV · 24/05/2020 12:48

I’m talking more about Downs Syndrome which can be screened as early as 10 weeks with the NIPT, where you could then get an amnio at 15 weeks-ish for confirmation.

Nipt is Used in conjunction with a neck fluid measurement that can only be done from 12 weeks.
Cvs can be done from 13 weeks but it carries risk and is only done in conjunction with other risk factors. Even after a positive cvs you may want to wait and see for physical abnormalities before you make a decision.