Girl challenging abortion law on grounds of disability

[User273648]

I've name changed for this. A girl is challenging the right to abortion on the grounds of disability as she has Downs. I'd be really interested in opinions.

Personally, I have a cousin who has Downs. She is low functioning (the girl challenging is clearly high functioning as she lives alone supported by carers). My aunt and uncle struggle with it. My aunt admitted once that she had cried for the first two years. They found out at birth. She obviously loves her daughter but given the choice of the same child not having Downs' Syndrome she would wish for that.

Obviously this a very sensitive topic - I'm not intending to upset anyone...just listen to other points of view.

YABU - the law should be changed so it's equal regardless of disability
YANBU - the law should stay similar to how it currently is.

www.dsrf-uk.org/downrightdiscriminationcase/

@HeatherIV

@CherryStoneTree I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I think the worry about this particular case is that it takes something very specific and personal (and individual) and applies that case to everybody. It makes it more likely to be picked up by the media than a usual abortion debate though of course.

All that this is asking for is equality in law for disabled babies who can currently be aborted up to birth.

Do you think that "equality" should apply even when the foetus has a condition that's incompatible with life? Do you think women should be forced to give birth to a child that will live the few hours/days it will survive in absolute agony? All so you can preach "equality?" How about equality for the disabled people who are actually alive now? How about a society that doesn't shit all over disabled people and their carers? Nah, much easier to preach "equality" than to actually achieve it in real life for people who exist right now.
You remind me of the forced birther anti-abortion idiots in America, they don't support abortion but they don't support any kind of welfare spending either.

Why? Don’t men understand that pregnancy can result from sex? Their moment to decide whether they want to take that risk is prior to fucking
So women shouldn’t have abortions either because any sex has the risk of pregnancy! Their moment to decide whether they want to take that risk is prior to fucking! Or are women totally blameless?

women can’t have it both ways. If a woman wants the baby, she’s allowed to choose between an abortion or keeping it. The father shouldn’t have a say in the woman’s choice of abortion but should be allowed to choose to walk away.

Men who don't want the risk of being held responsible for children shouldn't have sex.

So women shouldn’t have abortions either because any sex has the risk of pregnancy! Their moment to decide whether they want to take that risk is prior to fucking! Or are women totally blameless?

No. It’s very simple. Through the wonders of biology women have another route available to them. Men don’t.

Men should never have a say over another person’s body.

If Heidi really believes that "“What it says to me is that my life just isn’t as valuable as others, and I don’t think that’s right. I think it’s downright discrimination!", I don't understand why she is limiting her campaign too late abortions. Surely logically she should be fighting to make it unlawful to terminate at all for DS?

The fact that her solicitor is Paul Conrathe is revealing. If you google him you find a long history of involvement in pro-life cases, mainly with a religious agenda. I'm not sure how bothered he actually is about the specific rights of people with DS.

It's entirely possible, just as plenty of women are sexist. We've all internalised our society's prejudices, those of us who are victims of them as much as anyone else.

Are you disabled? Do you know anything about the reality of what it's like to be a disabled person in the UK? It's not disabilist to not want any potential child of yours to suffer the same things you have.

Men should never have a say over another person’s body
I agree but they also shouldn’t be forced to stick around for a child they don’t want. Women should choose whether or not to have abortions, men should be able to choose whether to walk away.

Or are women totally blameless?

Nothing to do with blame.

However, the woman’s right to autonomy over her own body trumps a man’s right to sex with guaranteed no consequences.

A child’s right to support from their parents trumps a man’s right to sex with guaranteed no consequences.

We are so used to prioritising men’s rights, I understand why people have trouble with this situation, but no, in the overall scheme of things, a man’s ‘right’ to consequence-less sex isn’t very important.

Right - because you couldn’t possibly be pro-life and have personal experience of raising a disabled child. 🙄 You know that some people are pro-life for the very reason that they have experience of raising a child with a condition that others use as a reason to have an abortion, right? Jeez.

Apart from the fact there are many pro lifers who haven't got a disabled adult they look after, you are trying to take a choice away from others and I don't believe that's reasonable. I don't know your circumstances but maybe you have the physical and mental resources to cope with this. Not everyone does. Maybe you've got a family and friend network who can help. Not everyone does.

People making different choices to you doesn't negate yours or disrespect your child. But you trying to force your decision onto others will cause a whole lot of pain and misery, there's no doubt of that.

men should be able to choose whether to walk away.

Nope. See my post above.

I agree but they also shouldn’t be forced to stick around for a child they don’t want. Women should choose whether or not to have abortions, men should be able to choose whether to walk away

Do you think they don’t? How touchingly naive.

The law should stay the same.

With the greatest of respect, Heidi has absolutely NO idea what it would be like to be the parent of a child with Down Syndrom who is low functioning and wholly, entirely reliant on care, for life.

Yes, the law as it stands MIGHT mean that someone who could live an independent life like her ends up aborted, but we will never know that.

Changing it means that there WILL be children born to parents who cannot cope, and they WILL suffer as a result.

I say all of this as a woman with genetic disabilities, I have friends with genetic disabilities, including Down Syndrome, friends who are parents of children with severe disabilities.

I think Heidi is being used as the poster child and puppet for this cause which is frankly, disgusting.

@nolongersurprised - thank you

I disagree with the proposal. One of mine had significant disabilities picked up at 19 week scan that couldn’t have been picked up in the earlier scan. It took several weeks with further scans and expert consults to make a more definitive diagnosis out of several possibilities. People need this time and then further time on top to research, organise other opinions, maybe talk to support groups and meet people etc, none of this is quick. I would not have made my final decision until around 30 weeks and thankfully everyone was supportive of whatever decision I made.

I find your post quite sickening. You have a disabled son and you’re saying you don’t want him and you would’ve aborted? Really?

@jasmineben, I’m sure many find your post quite sickening. I have friends with a young adult who has Down Syndrome and they feel exactly the same way. It’s a lucky dip unfortunately with a huge spectrum. Not all are like the young lady who has made the proposal. My friends child cannot live at home, their needs are too high. They live in a supported group living environment (these have replaced institutions here) and spend their entire day bombed out if their mind, staring at the wall and wearing a nappy (in their 20’s). Unfortunately, their level of distress in any normal situation is so high it leads to them seriously injuring both themselves and anyone around them and no sweet spot can be found with medication to allow any normality. Their child has no quality of life whatsoever and never will. It has severely impacted siblings and everyone involved. They made a choice at the time to move forward and gave a child with Down Syndrome but freely admit if they knew the consequence in their situation they would have definitely aborted. The main person it’s not fair on is their child themselves.

I’ve only read the OP title but do not at all welcome this challenge to further restrict women’s autonomy over their bodies and when (or if) they become mothers. Whoever it comes from.

This young woman, like every human being already has the right not to have an abortion for any reason if she doesn’t want to. That’s her business. It’s neither here nor there her views on other women having abortions for any reason.

Luckily for women in Britain (did not include NI because I’m not up to date on the situation there) have the right to safe legal free (NHS funded) abortion if we want or need it.

Ending a pregnancy because of a severe problem with the baby’s health, which can include Downs is a woman’s choice and done in close consultation with doctors as to the medical aspects and still legally requires two doctors’ permission. Information and non directive support around the diagnosis of a problem with a pregnancy is available from the charity Antenatal Results and Choices in case anyone needs it. www.arc-uk.org/

My body, my choice. I am sorry if people with disabilities are hurt that some women would abort rather than birth a child with that disability but their hurt does not change my right to bodily autonomy. Nothing trumps that.

@JanMeyer and @HeatherIV Those are reasons for better and earlier testing and better support and provisions for people living with disabilities or supporting those with disabilities - not offering later term abortions to ‘solve’ the ‘problem’.
By the same Logic should we able t euthanise babies born with disabilities that were not identified in utero/caused by birth trauma because their quality of life may be poor? Or babies who suffer severe illnesses in the first few weeks of life and will need supportive care for years?

FYI The phrase ‘incompatible with life’ is something that many parents of children born with rare trisomies etc are campaigning against. Many of these children were born alive and lived albeit for a short time. Their conditions were life-limiting - not incompatible with life.

Heidi, my rights are not yours to give away.

I do think it is possible to have "mild" autism. People like me, who are a bit worse than usual at socialising, but have average or above average IQs and happy lives do exist and thrive.

A person having an average IQ doesn't make their autism mild. The diagnostic criteria says a person's difficulties must cause "significant impairment" in everyday life. So, not so mild then.
I have autism, i have an above average IQ - it doesn't make my autism mild. Having a high IQ doesn't prevent a person from being severely affected by autism. It doesn't mean you can live independently.
Autism isn't just "having a bit of trouble socialising."
Oh, and fyi severely autistic people can have happy fulfilling lives too.

Or are women totally blameless?

Nothing to do with blame

On MN there’s been countless posts by men who say ‘my partner told me she was on the pill now she’s pregnant’ who then get bombarded with ‘well you chose to have sex!!!!’
When a woman posts about an unexpected unplanned pregnancy even if it results from unprotected sex, she’s met with posts like ‘oh bless you, this is such a shock, I’m so sorry you’re in this position, you’re not to blame’ blah blah blah. You’d never (or very rarely) find a poster brave enough to say to the woman ‘well you did choose to have sex!!!’ As would be the response to a man.

It seems like men are expected to cope with either consequence I.e baby or abortion whatever his feelings on either situation and have to suck it up either way. Meanwhile the woman is free to do what she likes despite the father’s wishes. I do support a woman’s right to abort but I don’t think that the men should have to just suck it up and look after a baby they didn’t want just like a woman wouldn’t have to suck it up and look after a baby she didn’t want

Downs can cause serious health problems which won’t always be apparent until later in pregnancy. Likewise it isn’t always picked up early as the NHS isn’t great with screening. The law is discriminatory against children/foetuses with downs but given the burden they create I don’t think it’s wrong to be discriminatory in this instance.

It’s very unfair to involve Heidi in all this. I’d be surprised if she’s able to understand beyond her own situation of high function, high support see the bigger picture.

She’s being told that people want to abort ‘people like her’ and obviously that’s a distressing thought. That doesn’t in any way reflect the complexity of the situation.