Do you believe that shellfish feel pain?

[QuestionableMouse]

Just been talking to my mum on the phone and we got to talking about stuff from childhood including our seaside trips. She used to buy two or three live crabs and boil them when we got home.

I was always horrified by it as a child and thought it was horrible. I'm still uncomfortable with the idea as an adult.

It seems that it's recommended to kill crabs/lobsters now before cooking.

I'm not sure a crab 'wants to live'. Not many species have a clear idea about the future, so while they'll avoid unpleasant experiences, a rabbit is unlikely to be legging it from the fox thinking 'Im about to die!'

Lobsters and Crabs don't have brains or spines, only a very basic nervous system. They are essentially sub-aqua insects. So I suppose you could assess whether you would worry about killing an insect. I like eating them regardless, but then I eat most things. I would prefer they were dispatched with a knife, but I think that is the current trend anyway, rather than boiling alive.

Yes I do think they feel pain and a number of scientists now agree. One of the reasons why it's illegal to boil lobsters alive in countries like Switzerland. In fact some scientists think that lobsters feel more pain than mammals like us.

And as for Maine and its oblivious tourists, David Foster Wallace's essay brilliant on that, particularly the blatant denial of another creature's suffering:

genius.com/David-foster-wallace-consider-the-lobster-annotated

Yes, I think that they do, and that boiling alive is a horrific way to die. I don’t think that justifying it by saying that they have less brain cells is fair either. That doesn’t mean that they can’t feel pain, or that they deserve cruelty from a supposedly ‘superior’ life form.

@rosiejaune

I actually think you're missing my point in than animals don't have any awareness of time/lifespan. Humane slaughter is possible but I wouldn't class boiling a crab/lobster as humane.

Are you vegan, by any chance?

As far as we know, only vertebrates have the ability to feel pain.

That statement is about 7 years out of date @riveted1

Whilst the evidence may not be complete (when is it ever!) it's pretty compelling

https://8fd525d4-663c-4ad2-9429-d18b1bfe5cb1.filesusr.com/ugd/46ca59_0fe0be951b374eb48c5b37e7004e507a.pdf

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21044077

In a way, it is preposterous to think that something with not much more than a millionth of a human equivalent nervous system really feels and experiences things.

I've never eaten them for that very reason, the whole idea is too horrific. No shellfish, molluscs, crustaceans for me. There are plenty of other things I can eat which are humanely killed.

Everything about eating and killing things that live in the sea is vile. I honestly cannot see how people find it appetising.

How would you know what they have an awareness of? Actually the more we investigate these things (often in unethical ways), the more we find humans and non-human animals are very similar in the ways that matter.

It's self-evident animals don't want to die. Pretending they are little more than plants, with programmed reactions to avoid death for evolutionary reasons might make you feel less guilty about eating them, but you are failing to acknowledge that we evolved the same way. If they are just biological machines, so are we, and our emotions don't matter any more than whatever they think and feel (which doesn't have to be the same as us for it to have intrinsic value).

Number of brain cells, and size of brain etc are irrelevant. Or are women less valuable than men, because they have smaller brains?

Number of brain cells, and size of brain etc are irrelevant.

It has to be relevant, when the difference is a factor of 860,000.

If I only had 1/860,000 of the nervous system that I have now, I would have diminished awareness; I’m sure if it.

Yes. They aren't like us. They may be different in what pain is to them and we are too ignorant to understand it. In any case I couldn't inflict pain on any animal, even it they perhaps don't feel it. The point is we don't know that they don't. And I'm not stupid enough to think I do know.

I’m all for kind-heartedness, but it’s for your benefit, not the crustaceans’.

I can't believe we think it's ok to eat anything that needs to be killed anymore. Of course they suffer. We just don't give a shit.

I don’t suppose I do give a big shit.

Crab is a lovely meal, but I’m having steak tonight.

But Dreeple we are not talking about you remaining human and reducing the extent of your nervous system, in which case yes of course your awareness would change. Your nervous system is perfect for a human. A crab's nervous system is perfect for a crab and its body and its needs. Fewer cells doesn't mean lesser; it's pointless to measure it in those terms.

www.animal-ethics.org/interest-in-living/

I believe they feel pain yes. Most people just don’t think about it or don’t care.

I think if people put more thought into things, there would be many more vegetarians and vegans. You’ll always get people who don’t care regardless though.

Yes rosiejaune that is a valid point, that a crab is not a “poor man’s human.”

I know that many animals feel pain the same way I do, and I avoid causing them pain.

I’m dubious about boiling crabs being cruel at all. It’s a big bug.

I do believe they feel pain. I have never eaten a lobster or a crab, the thought of boiling something alive is horrific. Not that other was of killing animals are nice. Its all killing, but the boiling one I judt cant contemplate

Crabs and lobsters are invertebrates. So they don't have a nervous system and brain in the same way that we do. There is evidence that they respond to pain but whether they feel it, in the way that we do, is unclear.

They are unable to scream as they don't have the necessary body parts.

From memory its important to cook crabs quickly after death (I remember something about copper and gills). I personally wouldn't boil alive, or slowly heat up. Quick spike and then cook.

Delicious.

Potting, if managed properly, is a non destructive form of fishing. I would rather eat a crab caught in a pot and humanely killed than a fish caught by trawling that then dies on deck.

I think you can freeze them first to render them unconscious or stand them in the head beforehand. I would never drop them in boiling water even if they can't feel pain I still think it's cruel.

PETA apparently have carried out extensive research on this which finds that shellfish do feel pain, their cells contain neurological pain receptors or something.
You can google it.
I try not to think about it as I eat a lot of prawns.

Do PETA publish in peer reviewed journals @Samtsirch?

Horrible world we live in really!

I have no idea whether they do or don't but I do know anything from PETA can't be trusted