To think if you want to be “like Denmark”...

[SachaStark]

... then you have to be prepared to vote and pay taxes like the Danish?

I keep reading these comparisons on here, particularly regarding the re-opening of Danish schools, and seeing posters cry out for, “being like Denmark.”

But ultimately, things like this are easier (though not easy) for countries like Denmark which benefit hugely from high taxation. Hence why their schools can be better prepared, and they have a greater number of well-maintained public spaces to utilise for COVID-related reasons.

AIBU to think that if you want to be more like Denmark, then you should be realigning your thinking to agree with, for example, income tax rates of 45%, in order to create a country with excellent public services, like Denmark?

wildcherries

Oh, I'm so sorry for my ignorance I must have Denmark mixed with another country or stat. I do apologise.

I like Denmark but doesn’t it have a high sucked rate - life isn’t always rosier somewhere else except maybe Bali!

Au use!!

Arrggghh sucide!!! Spell checker!!!

Denmark is one of the happiest countries in the world. I was meant to be holidaying there but covid got in the way. I'd love to go another time.

There's no point comparing how Danish schools have gone back because children don't start school until they are 7, and also they had significantly lower death rates than us.

And our year R and 1 children are going back from early June.

Devlesko It's fine - just, there's enough misinformation out there :)

Are there mega rich Danish ex pats who don't pay tax in Denmark. But their families live there.
We have that in Ireland.
Drives me nuts.

My friend teaches in Denmark.
All teachers must be masters level educated. All early years teachers must be masters level in pedagogy.
Yes children start school at 7- but they almost all attend kindergarten before that for several years.
He teaches in 14-17 and get 150% PPE time. Teachers in England get 10% PPE time!
(PPE being planning and preparation, not facemasks/gloves)

@Devlesko Denmark has had just under 600 deaths not cases.

Also, I believe that these bubbles children are returning to school in- in Denmark early years a bubble is 3 children, whereas the government is demanding 15 in English schools.

My cousin moved to Denmark in January, she is a NICU nurse and her wife is a GP. They left the UK as her wife as a GP felt unable to give adequate treatment due to time constraints during appointments. She works 37 hours a week, the pay is better and she gets to spend a decent amount of time with her patients, she also isn’t penalised for prescribing a more costly medication.

I do think the big issue in the UK is that we don’t actually have a society, we just have groups of people, rather than a whole population working together.

My boyfriend is Swedish, it’s interesting to hear what he has experienced. A big thing is that it is completely normal for a highschool student to know about taxation, childcare costs etc as they are things which benefit all of society. He was horrified when he found out what I was paying for wrap around care, then I told him typical nursery costs.

He has a physical disability, in the UK NICE limit treatment as a result here he isn’t able to have further surgeries or physio on the NHS. He has very little use of his hands, his disability means his palm is essentially flat against his inner wrist, he can’t move them from that position, so he can’t brush/wash his hair, chop food, pick up anything heavier than a small bottle of milk or anything with an awkward shape, he can’t do buttons so shirts are velcro. So it is quite limiting, in Sweden he is due more surgeries, his next one (which should have been last month) will be a muscle graft which will hopefully enable him to move his right wrist, this would enable almost normal hand function as he can move his fingers normally. He then gets to choose if he goes for the same surgery in his left hand.

I would happily pay more taxes to enable the UK to be a fairer society, if you look at reception children so many are already so far behind it will impact negatively on their adult life. That isn’t right, our ability to succeed, be happy, healthy etc should not be based on who our parents are.

The centre left won by adopting the anti immigration rhetoric of its rivals. If any mainstream UK politician promoted this? They would be denounced as far right fanatics.

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/04/denmark-centre-left-predicted-win-election-social-democrats-anti-immigration-policies

I do think the big issue in the UK is that we don’t actually have a society, we just have groups of people, rather than a whole population working together.

Totally agree. The world faces huge global problems, especially climate change, problems which need to be tackled collaboratively. Children must be encouraged to work together if they are to have any future, and this is something Scandinavians are much better at encouraging.

Listening to my dc’s online lessons recently has been an eye-opener. My youngest is at a selective Prep and I’ve realised the classes are run in such a competitive, adversarial way, with the teacher constantly pushing them to show off and outdo their peers. Then there are the assemblies where endless ‘achievements’ are celebrated, rather than social goods. George Monbiot mentioned something similar recently.

It’s making me reassess whether we made a mistake in choosing the private system. Our dc are all clever, happy & thriving - but I’m not sure they are learning the right values. I went to a similar school myself, so I suppose I took much of this for granted.

Not going to link all these but they can be fact checked by googling.

Violence against women top10 percentile in Europe.

Carbon foot print per capital worse than USA and most of the old EU.

World largest shipping company and Regional air hub destroys green credentials.

Programme for international student assessment below Ireland, UK, USA and plenty of others, including Estonia.

Lower life expectancy than Ireland, UK and plenty more, including Italy and Greece.

Cancer death rates around median for EU.
Check out how much of the welfare state is funded from oil revenues.

Household debt 3rd highest in the world after Switzerland and Australia. Everyone in Denmark owes about 50 percent more than UK.

Denmark has the highest direct and indirect tax take from their economy in the world.

The highest energy tax in the world.

There's more, but I think the point is made.

Household debt is high because if the crazy housing prices- almost at UK levels.

There are also societal and social reasons why Scandinavian countries function in the way they do, not just stemming from higher tax rates (I have a Norwegian grandmother and relatives who live there), although those differences are what drives the acceptance of higher taxes.

I’m high-ish earner and would happily pay higher tax IF I thought public services and amenities would actually improve and the money spent responsibly. I don’t have enough faith in any of our political parties to think that is likely, so I am wary of lowering my disposable income/living standards for little to change. Though I suppose that it is perhaps a case of “getting the politician’s we deserve”.

Far too many of our MP’s are professional politicians who don’t have a vast amount of experience outside of the Westminster bubble. They also will say whatever it takes to be elected- whether deliverable or not and promise all sorts of things. I don’t really think there are too many of them who will stand up and say what they really believe, to stick up for their principles. Instead, they go with whatever will get them into power (or keep them there). Because they all do the same, nothing changes. So, rather than trying to persuade others and show why they think “x” is the right thing, they just go along with populism of whichever political hue they lean towards. There are notable exceptions, of course.

One lot don’t believe in a strong public sector and the other lot seem to think centralisation, and flinging money at all and sundry will help. Until that changes, I am not entirely convinced that giving politician’s more of our money will do anything to make us more like the Danes, or any Scandinavian country.

I'm also of the view that, if you don't like the culture where you are, go somewhere that suits you better and stop complaining so much!

This assumes that culture is something static and that such things as welfare or education are not dependent on the political will at the moment.

I have lived nearly 30 years in the UK and there is an awful lot about the supposed culture of this country that I just don't recognise from those early days. Go back another 10, 20, 30 years and there will be more. Who says that in the long run Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings are more representative of British culture than Nye Bevan?

It also requires complete ignorance of historical development in the Scandinavian countries to suppose that they have some kind of innate culture that makes them focus on welfare. They are the way they are because of political decisions made in the post-war period. Not because there is something in the water or they were always that way. But because of people being dissatisfied and complaining and deciding to do something about it.

How is democracy even possible if you are not supposed to express what you dislike about the current state of affairs and suggest ways of working towards something different?

Another Dane here. I agree with everything CopenhagenMummy has said.

Average income tax is 37% - it's a lot, but I gladly pay that much in taxes in order to enjoy all the benefits:

Free medical care.
Effective healthcare system.
Free university education for everyone that meets the academic requirements to be admitted (in fact, students receive a monthly grant from the government to help them).
Organised society.
Clean society.
Decent roads and good infrastructure.
Effective police force.

Living costs are expensive here, but we do earn higher salaries than, say, in the UK. Not to mention we probably work under much better conditions here.

I wouldn't say Copenhagen is more expensive than London. I find that healthy groceries are much cheaper here than in the UK, and so is eating out in many cases. But things like clothes and beauty products are usually more expensive here.

I think we have come through the pandemic quite well, because we reacted relatively fast. I actually wish the prime minister had issued a lock-down as soon as the first case of COVID appeared back in February. But at least she did it before things got way out of hand.

I think Danes in general have had a much better attitude towards locking down than the Brits seem to have. Maybe it's just a very Danish thing to try to look at the bright side of things, or make the best of things that we can't control.

I visited Denmark in the late 1990s, and have been a huge fan ever since.

If the language wasn't so incomprehensible to me, I'd want to live there - but I'm not bad with languages, yet I just couldn't tune into it.

But wonderful place, Copenhagen, and then North West Zealand - bloody amazing. and love the Danish outlook on life.

As a socialist, I am totally down with increased tax. At the moment, the rich in the UK get off scot free, and it isn't fair.

the biggest problem I can see is that the rich don't consider themselves actually rich. the top 5% band starts at around £80k solo wage/salary but people earning this amount don't realise they are intact "well off" and do nothing but moan about the debts they've chosen

Surprised you don't think tax on cars is punishingly expensive? Although it's come down a bit lately hasn't it?

Car? What car? The place is totally flat, there are bike lanes everywhere and public transport is good. We save a fortune by not having a car.

But the bikes are not left unlocked, there is a lock on the frame near the top of the back wheel, practically impossible to see if you don’t know it’s there.

My husband is from Jylland, not much public transport there.