Is this is normal 11 year old behaviour?!

[frostedviolets]

My 11 year old DS is driving me crackers with his rude, frankly arrogant attitude, particularly bare faced lying and I have no clue if this is normal or not??

For example, earlier today I corrected him for minor rudeness, he pulls a ‘smarmy/sarcastic’ face and I say why have you pulled that face?
DS: ‘I didn’t pull a face’
Said utterly convincingly as truth.

He will insist no matter what, even going so far as to apologize for upsetting me but not pulling a face because he didn’t.

This is a regular thing!
And it might sound minor but it’s driving me absolutely insane and really upsetting me actually.
He insists so convincingly when I know 100% it’s a lie.

For another common example, failure to say thank you, you pass him something which he takes in silence, say to him ‘say thank you’ and get ‘I did say thank you’ back when he absolutely didn’t and I know he didn’t because I was right next to him!!

Is this normal?
How on earth do I deal with this?!

What works for one child doesn't always the other and depends on parenting style, relationship etc. My 11 year DD has done something similar one time and I responded with 'well you didn't say it, I know it and you know it so let's cut the crap shall we because it's gonna get really boring.'
Just a firm telling without babying or anything helped and nipped it straight in the bud but that's how we work if you see what I mean.

My 11 year DD has done something similar one time and I responded with 'well you didn't say it, I know it and you know it so let's cut the crap shall we because it's gonna get really boring

Oh, I did say something similar to him when he pulled the face.

I can’t remember the exact response but it was something like ‘I honestly didn’t but I know you seem to think I did. I’m sorry you are upset but I really didn’t pull a face’

He's your son, so you know what is likely to work in terms of punishment for lying.

Also he's only 11 but most lairs don't like being called a lair. So next time he does not say thank you but claims till he is blue, he has. Call him a lair and keep repeating it.

Him: Mum, I did say it.
You: you're a lair.
Him: I'm not, I did say it.
You: you're a lair.
Him: I'm sorry you did not hear it but I did say it.
You: you're a lair.

Then for lying to you he has a punishment.

You: right because you lied to me, you've lost iPad for however long.
It does not matter if he says sorry. He is not really saying sorry, he is making it your fault.

Oh well sorry you did not hear it but I did say it. That's a fuck you right there. He needs to learn while still young that lying and lying about lying is not right and will indeed earn him a punishment.

As for attitude, well he's turning into a teen so expect some attitude. However the lying needs to stop. Bare face lying to the degree of trying to tell you something happened right in front of you, that never happened is not normal, no.

If he lies... I would point out he lied. When he lies again and says he did say thank you or whatever.. My reply is.. 'What in your head? As you didn't say it out loud...'
Unless he then looks a bit subdued I'd say. So that's your second lie..

Every time he lies and then lies to back it up.. Count it out to them... Take away things he likes..
At the end of the day... Today I've caught you out on xxx lies. I do not want you to be a liar.... As how can I trust anything you say? Better tomorrow please...

Hormones. 100%. My soon to be 11 year old is exactly the same. 100% normal. I just need to work out how to back off and not rise to it. Sigh.

People make "faces" as a natural reaction to things all the time and don't necessarily realise they're doing it. I am often accused of "scowling" at people but it's not (usually) deliberate.

Yeah. That's what positively angelic Year 7s do in school.

It usually results in angry phone calls from Mums demanding to speak to the Head because their child would never be an arrogant little prick so rude as to deserve a detention or spell in isolation.

Suppose it's a small upside to lockdown, that some parents are finally experiencing the way their children speak to school staff.

Fairly minor problem I would say. Things could be a lot worse.

I’m a secondary teacher and I encounter this all
The time I find it so weird and annoying!! I think it’s stems from a fear of getting in trouble.

Be aware learning to lie is apparently a vital life skill..
Think I saw that on here tbh...
Seriously..
As a dm of adult dc I would say I do agree.
It hasn't meant I have ended up with lying twat dc either...
Calling him out on it is the correct measure though..

Blimey Mitzi, hope you feel better after your vent

My class are like this, I have the child the same age so I have told them I can see the rolling of eyes etc even when my back is turned and I do call them out on it.
However, I don’t think they always know that they are doing it, and actually the worst culprit is a lovely wee girl, one of the sweetest in the class (I realised once I got passed finding her face pulling highly irritating) so don’t be afraid to call him out on it, but don’t let it over take your view of him, I really don’t think they mean to be so annoying

My 11 year old is exactly the same. I’ve tried so many different things but she’s just being a (Little shit) typical prepubescent child.

Can’t wait until Year 6 go back.

Same here, DC is driving me crazy. They lose tech when they lie. I don't care about the initial action, if they tell me the truth, depending on what it is, there is usually not a punishment, however if they lie about it and don't tell me the truth then there is a punishment. Don't get me started on the attitude... -.-'

Sometimes as an adult, I think I pull a bit of a face when I really think I’m managing not to.

Sometimes I have said to my 11yo, “I know sometimes it’s your feelings that are making your expression and it’s not actually deliberate - so it’s kind of not your fault - but you really have to try not to do it, cos it’s rude”. That always gets an apology and admission it provably happened.

For the lying - I’d tell him to stop trying to get away with it. I’d tell mine I was born yesterday, cut the crap! But I am more understanding of the lack of maturity and control that leads to a grumpy face sometimes!

Yup, yup, yup, can relate to the face-pulling & huffing & eye-rolling then outraged denial when pulled up on it and barefaced lying about things that are trivial but then you have to follow up abd it escalates...

Mine also knows EVERYTHING before you’ve even finished a sentence and answers most requests with a “I was ALREADY doing it!” Or “I SAID so” even when the response was in their head.

Extremely trying. But pretty normal, I think.

Sometimes I have said to my 11yo, “I know sometimes it’s your feelings that are making your expression and it’s not actually deliberate - so it’s kind of not your fault - but you really have to try not to do it, cos it’s rude”. That always gets an apology and admission it provably happened.

This is very wise Ellisandra. I shall try it.

Is it bad iv took to doing sarcastic smiles back

It IS an age thing. Mine was awful. Lying I always clamped down on immediately but some of the rest I think you have to ignore a bit or you spend your time in a constant battle.

I’m a teacher.

Expressions I ignore
Mutters I pick up on privately, afterwards
Outright rudeness I deal with according to school policy

Pick your battles - and maybe talk about what wonderful things expressive faces are, at a time when everyone is chilled. Wonderful...but also in need of firm reins as people get older....

The thing with face pulling is that it is intended to wind you up, so I find a grin or a wink back soon takes the wind out of ds’s sails if he is eye rolling at me.
With the lying too, if ds says ‘I did say thank you’ I just pretend to believe him. ‘Oh did you? Well in that case you’re very welcome, and a big smile’. He has started saying thank you every time now. I think it’s just easier for him than having the conversation every time!

This stage of development could test the patients of a saint, honest to goodness! I would keep at him til he admits it. It is normal they're just testing boundaries and seeing what they can get away with.

So today, my one said he didnt do something when he was clearly seen doing it. So, we point out we seen him and he goes quite, we ignore him just standing there (giving it all he's got) and get on with what we are doing. He'll ask for something (such as snack etc) we'll give it but if he asks for kindle, playstation etc we ask him why he lied, he'll say nothing so we say no and move on. This goes on til he admits he lied. Then we have a discussion around lying. Although thankfully it doesnt happened so often. But it can be very annoying. I tend to stand an sing to myself. Or think about something that's fun that I like. They're like bloody wooden packers, going on and on and on.
I'd find something to distract yourself to stay cool, he'll eventually cave and be honest. I'd persist til he comes clean.

My old enough to know better step son does this, it is soooo utterly infuriating!!!!

I'd not bother with a back & forth re why are you lying, I saw you etc , that implies to him, he can negotiate (worm his way) out of it. A short 'we both know you're lying, so no screen time tonight' (or something he values) should do it.

Eurgh, my 11 year old has a terrible attitude sometimes. He can be a lovely, enthusiastic boy a lot of the time and I’ve really enjoyed this chance to hone educate him and his 12 year old brother. But sometimes when he doesn’t know how to do the work instantly he can get really moody and angry and complain that ‘this work is stupid!’ or snap at his brother to shut up if he’s trying to work out a maths problem aloud or something. Most of the time I try to ignore it because if I pull him up on being moody I get backchat and sulking but yesterday I snapped. Told him I was sick of walking on egg shells worrying what was going to make him moody each day and if he wasn’t going to snap out of his mood and get on with his work he could go up to his room for the rest of the day! He sulked a bit but did come round. The thing is, I’m always sitting right there next to him, willing and able to help him but if he can’t just do something straightaway we all suffer with his moods and anger!

I am also looking forward to Year 6 going back!