Privilege

[NewModelArmyMayhem18]

Teenage DD thinks we're not privileged because we don't have a desirable postcode and are not wealthy. However, we do have a family income above national average, two university-educated parents (coming from a family on one side professional and educated to university level for four generations). She is basing this purely on disposable assets (i.e. we are not totally in favour of having the latest technology, don't have a car because we don't need one etc...). She got in a huff this evening because we called her out on her complaint. I wouldn't say she's spoiled and on paper has a less privileged state education than her older sibling but really she has no understanding of what real privilege is/isn't. And in a way she has a much wealthier and privileged group of friends than her sibling. Who is AIBU?

It can be very hard for teenagers to realise how fortunate they are when they are constantly reading media full of tales of desirable consumer goods and extreme privilege that none of can ever hope to achieve even on 6 figure salaries. They also cannot understand how some people prioritise stuff and often have extreme debt jeopardising their future to have their new (leased) car, latest phone, holidays abroad etc.

Quite young, whilst still at primary school we introduced our kids to how people live outside of their social bubble of university educated, affluent people because we worried about them growing up spoilt brats quite frankly. We support 2 young ladies to attend university now (school then) in Uganda who they correspond with, we don't buy the latest gadgets, they earn their money from chores, and we prioritise experience over stuff so they have been on amazing trips, events here in the U.K. etc that are expensive but I had an 11 year old car and now don't have a car. They are both at university and very good with money.

Ps I don't think of privilege just being fortunate and all kids here in the U.K. are fortunate compared to many in the world when you look at what truly matters - even my DD's friend living in temporary accommodation funded by the council with her baby, not all countries have a safety net.

Even in this thread of adults, there are lots of different understandings of what privilege means. To me it’s nothing to do with iPhones, flash holidays and cars, it’s getting a head start in life by being:

I think many people are only talking about what privilege may look like from an average teen's POV.

As a child and teen I was convinced we were a "poor family" but in hindsight my DDad is a tight fisted debt averse person and loads of my friends families were buying all sorts on credit rather than earning significantly more than my parents.

I don't think debt averse is a negative. Everyone should be "debt averse" and only go into debt if there's absolutely no choice.

It is absolutely possible to be white, male, able bodied, straight and deprived. Look at educational outcomes for working class white males in this country.

Yes, but you also need to look at the research into how, for white men in particular, poor educational outcomes are not necessarily associated with lower pay after leaving school.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2019/02/ethnic-minority-pupils-get-worse-degrees-and-jobs-even-if-they-have

@NewModelArmyMayhem18
It was a few years ago now but Cuba was very poor indeed (unless you worked for the government). We went to one house where the big old 50s fridge was being used as a cupboard as there was inadequate electricity. The only decoration on the walls was a completed jigsaw of the Swiss alps which had pride of place.
Some of the bar staff in the hotel were fully qualified doctors trying to make a little money with side jobs.
The cigar making factory was an eye opener in terms of working conditions and yes, the food was intriguing
Having said that, the country and people were welcoming and very friendly. One of the few holiday places in that direction where there were no Americans.
Definitely an eye opener in terms of contrasting lifestyles.

This is probably nothing new it's just that social media has magnified it. I grew up in very lovely area, my DDad was a high salaried medic and I went to the local comp which had a very varied intake. My dad was very cautious with his spending. I used to get a bit teased for "living on the posh estate" but my trainers were always Clarks own brand and wardrobe kitted out from Marks and Spencers, whereas the kids from the council estate had the Kappa tracksuits, Fila puffs jackets, Nike trainers. As a teenager I'll tell you who I felt was most 'privileged'.

My children understand they are privileged but thinking about it, with the exception of one demonstration with them about 5 years ago, ive not discussed it so they are probably doing it in comparison with their friends (And they have more privileged friends)

They all appreciate their childhoods and dd will be the first to say that she is spoilt (her word)

Although a 17 year old dd (she is 18 now) me that all her friends have the latest ipHone when she has a new but old edition and when they pass their tests they get a brand new white mini

When questioned further turns out that one has a new mini, one an old one and the bulk of her friends have no car at all...those friends with the latest iphones are quite often funding them their selves from jobs

I, and they, understand that privilege is more than money

It is not quite clear from the OP's posts whether the dd is subscribing to the teen-Marxist-manifesto or the opposite hard-done-by-because-we-can't-holiday-on-the-Seychelles-teen-agenda, but in a sense it doesn't matter.

Her age is very much one of obsessing about where you fit in and worrying that your family, your background, you are simply wrong in some vague, undefined way- which is why they tend to be so terribly concerned with defining exactly where their parents go wrong. It's worrying about where they fit in.

My ds at this age indulged in a terribly wearying negativity: there's no point in doing anything, no point in trying to do your best, no point in trying to help people, you're just looking silly, you're not Nelson Mandela. Looking back, he now admits the whole thing was a bit silly.

Dh still has the pronounced cockney accent he developed to define himself against his more middle-class-spoken parents. Isn't a problem at all, in fact probably quite helpful in his line of work.

Where you need to take a strong stand is when they start speaking disrespectfully to you because of what you cannot provide for them or disrespectfully about poor people in general. Treat that as a disciplinary issue, let the rest go.

Meh. DS1 was screaming at me recently that we must be really poor because I was saying, again, that no, he could not have a new mobile phone. We aren't. His dad grew up really poor, often cold and often hungry in Eastern Europe and said on balance he'd rather DS1 be deluded about it all and never actually know what poverty was than have to live it and thus have a real understanding of just how privileged we actually are.

It can be quite uncomfortable to recognise your own privilege. I remember the first time I really 'got' that I had white privilege and what that meant; it was not a pleasant experience. I wonder if your dd is not so much arguing that it takes gadgets to be privileged as knowing that she is and struggling with the sense of guilt that can bring.

Sounds like normal teen angst to me. I remember feeling the same as a teen (that my friends were more privileged) though I wouldn't have dared voice it to my mum!

I think the misunderstanding here is that the opposite of privileged is not underprivileged. The term "privilege" usually refers more to the way in which certain members of society - white and/or male usually but also sometimes by class - may or may not be wealthy/successful etc but they do not suffer specifically because of their race, sex or background.

Underprivileged is really an economic measurement that focuses on those in society who have very little financial freedom and that has a specific knock on effect in terms of how they are able to live their lives and/or the opportunities that are presented to them.

If you are white, your daughter is very likely to be the beneficiary of privilege as a white middle class person (your son, of course, would benefit more as a white, middle class male). If you are not white, then it's true that she does not experience this privilege. But it's got little to do with what gadgets etc she has.

Privilege is such a loaded term.

Why are you determined to convince her she is "privileged"? As a teenager she is unlikely to have the perspective/experience to understand what you are getting at.

If you want her to appreciate the aspects of her upbringing and lifestyle that you believe bring long term benefits, why not just use terms like fortunate or lucky.

I hate the word "privilege".

@UnabashedlyNeurodifferent

Oh no I don't see it as negative at all. I'm really grateful for DDad teaching me how to be good with money and providing us a stable home even if I did think we were poor at the time.

I probably sound like was a judgemental cow as a teen (and I probably was ) but I honestly couldn't believe how daft some of my friends parents were when I found out how much debt they had just taking out loans for holidays and cars.

Ah ok Must have misunderstood you.

I agree getting into large debt to keep up with the Joneses or acquire material possessions (even experiences) especially without a proper plan for quick, easy and comfortable repayment is part of the reason many are swimming in debt.

Of course this doesn't include those who had a sudden financial hit due to circumstances unforeseen, etc)

it is all relative to someone else.

Making teenage girls feel grateful for what they have has never been easy even if you are Mother Theresa washing the feet of lepers in your spare time.

Ha that made me laugh @Xenia!

I feel privileged.

I came from a working class family, but I own a big house with a large garden, some land, married to a successful lawyer.

We had one round of IVF which worked first time. Child completely healthy, in every way, and incredibly bright with it.

I’m on furlough but it doesn’t matter because I don’t NEED to work.

I have a lovely car that I don’t really need but WANT it.

We have no debt apart from our mortgage.

I have a big family and great relationships with my siblings.

We can afford to send our child to private school, and were offered a place, but turned it down in favour of a state school as it actually far nicer and has smaller class sizes. It’s 5 miles out of our catchment and we somehow were awarded a place. I guess I’ll need that car now!

We have been very lucky which I know has caused huge resentment from my MIL, who favours DH’s sibling. They do ok, own their own home etc. but have a challenging life as they have 4 children and one with severe autism.

Privilege to me is not necessarily huge wealth or education but having the freedom not to worry about getting by day to day, good support from family (I’ve never had to use nursery or a hired babysitter), and absolutely 100% good health.

It also helps if you are happy with what you have, and that will vary from person to person as we all have different desires and ideals.

I can see your daughter’s point of view OP.

Yes, DD clearly needs to go to a developing world country for a lesson in humility.

Yes if she were to go to a developing country she’d be considered

Extremely privileged in every aspect of her life.
But that won’t change how she thinks when she is back in her own surroundings.

I know you mean good, but the whole idea ( and I’m not talking about your post here but , generally) of pointing towards the less fortunate so we can make a point is just wrong, I used to do that with DS I’d say: well look at so and so and you will see how fortunate you are" . In South Africa some children told us they walked for a minimum of an hour each day to school, I then told my son how fortunate he and his sister are and that they should be thankful, it went straight over his head.
Both Dcs are very helpful towards the less fortunate and would always give some of their money to charities ..etc But they are still so young to grasp the whole concept. They’d be happy to help others but they will still want things.

Op, don’t worry, she’s just being a stroppy teen.

I have an 11yo who thinks he is deprived because I won’t buy him a Nintendo switch

At 11 he has a double bedroom in a lovely house, in a village, with a large garden, a laptop, phone and DS3x and a new bike, but apparently I’m cruella d’Ville. Just laugh it off. She’ll grow out of it.

I think the issue is a lot of people are privileged in some ways but not in others.
I think few people are wholly privileged. For example wealthy black men are privileged because of their wealth whereas they are disadvantaged by their race according to society. However working class white boys are very highly disadvantaged educationally even though from a race and sex point of view they are arguably privileged.
I think the term is a bit of a minefield for that reason

Exactly. My sons (and I) livein a minority white London borough and their school is mostly not white - at one point one son was the only white boy in the class but this is a fee paying school so only 8% of people in the UK in cluding all those non white parents are rich enough to be able to afford it. How you work out all the privilege or not there (and all boys at school so already in some senses well ahead of women as male) and then compare with Sunderland in NE England where my mother was from and NE England for me where white working class boys have nothing like the privilege of all those non white London private schools boys.