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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think "it's alright for you" for those who want lockdown for now until eternity?

381 replies

GlummyMcGlummerson · 11/05/2020 09:04

I've seen, on both MN and social media, outrage after the PM announcement last night that strict lockdown won't be in place any more. Lots of sensationalist "great so now people can come to the Dales and kill us all" type posts. Furious that builders can go back to work and school children can go back to school in June to "kills us all". People are saying we should have lockdown until there's a vaccine, or until September. All these people on social media either:

  • work from home anyway
  • run their business from home
  • didn't work anyway

AIBU in thinking "yeah it's alright for you!". Some of us need to return to work to keep a living and roof over our heads. I am furloughed until the end of the month but if my workplace can't re-open by around July then my job is basically fucked. I'm a single parent to 2, my ex runs a business that also relies on lockdown being eased, so if he loses his business then I lose maintenance payments.

I think it also shows a woeful misunderstanding of what lockdown is for. It wasn't implemented so that we could stay at home while the virus fairy magicked corona virus away. It was never the expectation that lockdown would solve the virus problem. There will be a second peak - NHS barely survives flu season as it is, it's important that the next peak doesn't coincide with the inevitable flu peak

OP posts:
TurtleTortoise · 11/05/2020 12:23

And just because you don't see anyone, it doesn't mean your life is worthless. What a horrible way to think.
It's completely unnatural and psychologically devastating for most people to live in isolation. That doesn't mean they are worthless, it means living their life is intolerable.

Not everyone needs people. I could live just fine if I never saw anyone ever again.

This isn't true unless you're not fully human. People need people. Why does me dying by suicide not matter but if I died of covid it does? People need to get a gri and accept death is better than this

majesticallyawkward · 11/05/2020 12:24

I'm pointing out that, hard as it is, we need to tough it out.

Tough it out? What about the people who will, or have already, loose all income? How do they keep a roof over their heads and food on the table? It's not a matter of roughing it out and it's incredibly short sighted to see it that way.

Grendlsmother · 11/05/2020 12:24

Ddl1.... really agree with you.."There still isn't a vaccine for HIV/AIDS for example, but it's not the life sentence it once was as we've learnt how to treat it much more effectively."
Lots of this hysteria reminds me of the vile attitude to those who were HIV positive in the eighties

Jojobar · 11/05/2020 12:25

Healthy people are scared because they don't understand the risk, or lack of.

Many people also have never known real poverty, it's completely outside their experience. I think this is particularly true of those in their 20s and 30s now who are too young to remember the high unemployment of the 1970s/80s, the 3 day week, and so on. If you've not experienced being really poor you won't know how it feels. And it won't seem as scary as the virus, because people's fear of the virus is disproportionate.

True poverty, which could well result from a serious recession, is far more likely and a far greater risk even to a healthy person, than catching Covid 19, and ultimately could kill even more people.

Mittens030869 · 11/05/2020 12:26

It really isn't about an 'I'm all right, Jack' in my case. I'm actually very concerned. My DH has asthma so is vulnerable and I'm still on the long road back to recovery from COVID-19 and I've been really careful to self-isolate from him to protect him from catching it. I really wouldn't want it all to be for nothing, which would be the case if one of us were to bring the virus into the house again, either from the playground at pick-up time or when out and about.

Fortunately for us, it will be just DD1 (year 6) going back to school and she's able to walk to school independently. For families with DC in Reception and year 1, they don't have this luxury, and there will be parents who have vulnerabilities. A lot of thought needs to be put into how to maintain social distancing at home time.

I want my DDs back at school, and DD1 has adoption related attachment issues and SEN and really needs routine. DD2 (8) is missing her friends like anything and will struggle if DD1 goes back and she doesn't. But I'd much rather have them stay at home than put vulnerable parents and teachers at risk because social distancing hasn't been made possible.

daisychain01 · 11/05/2020 12:26

3 - people seem to think that there was a change around work. There wasn't, the PM just reiterated that those who are allowed to work outside the home, and have been allowed to work outside the home since lockdown was announced, should do so.

There is a change. For people to return to work, employers need to take the responsibility of their staff safety seriously in terms of providing social distancing and significant hygiene standards increases. The PM alluded to that, but obviously wasn't going into the specific nuts and bolts, that will be the HSEs job to come up with guidance for employers.

If employees believe their employers are not taking their responsibilities seriously, putting their lives and health at risk, and there is no sign of them putting in any such changes employees can decline to return to the office, but people need to communicate with their employer, not just refuse to turn up for work. They need to clarify their concerns and why they do not feel safe returning and what they believe needs to be done. There may even be an escalation route via HSE if employees want to whistle blow, as they should not be expected to put their lives at risk, and increase the spread of Corona virus. But first port of call is discussion with their manager,

This is just my thought based on listening to yesterday's address, and recognising there is more detail to be published about safe working environments during Corona virus. Plus what my employer (Government Dept) has already started to communicate, in readiness for potentially returning to an office based environment.

Grendlsmother · 11/05/2020 12:26

TurtleTortoise .... "This isn't true unless you're not fully human. People need people. Why does me dying by suicide not matter but if I died of covid it does? People need to get a grip and accept death is better than this."
I agree ... I'm an old fart at 47 but many many young people I know feel like this at the moment

Notmyrealname855 · 11/05/2020 12:26

I think people need to accept some areas are hit harder than others too... what might be right for one town/ county really isn’t right for another

People are being hit hard whether it’s loss of jobs (hello this will be me :( ) or losing family members (lots in our village). It’s not a competition... we need flexibility, different solutions to different areas. People here are really reliant on tourism but still don’t want the area opened up because the cases are so bad :(

Maybe it should be controlled at local level...

4cats2kids · 11/05/2020 12:27

@LaurieMarlow. I’m well aware of how the NHS is funded and of the prospect of economic damage. I just think it was simplistic to suggest those who are supporting lockdown are doing so because they are privileged, some have more reason than others to be scared.
Also I am still wondering what happens to my currently shielded child when schools go back, nothing has been said about this. I also have a family member who is furloughed due to health problems who is worrying about whether they will be forced back. So much coming from government is vague, and most of us are suffering in one way or another.

Grendlsmother · 11/05/2020 12:27

Jojobar .... you're right "True poverty, which could well result from a serious recession, is far more likely and a far greater risk even to a healthy person, than catching Covid 19, and ultimately could kill even more people."
Sheltered middle classes are clueless

PerkingFaintly · 11/05/2020 12:28

Bear in mind that the lockdown isn't just about protecting those who have a higher risk of death; it's also about temporary loss of labour while people are sick.

This study uses US data but is likely to be useful for similar economies, and models how different types of lockdown and social distancing might pan out.

(NB It assumes that people become immune after infection: if that turns out not to be so, the rest of the modelling falls over. The authors also point out that their study isn't a forecast and will need to be updated as more about CV spread becomes known. I've only read the Abstract and Introduction.)

SOCIAL DISTANCING AND SUPPLY DISRUPTIONS IN A PANDEMIC
Martin Bodenstein, Giancarlo Corsetti, Luca Guerrieri
www.inet.econ.cam.ac.uk/working-paper-pdfs/wp2017.pdf

The below is an extract from the press release:

www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/economic-damage-could-be-worse-without-lockdown-and-social-distancing-study
There is much debate over the economic costs of our lockdown lives: whether the mitigation of disease spread is worth the deepening financial crisis.

New research from the University of Cambridge suggests that there is no absolute trade-off between the economy and human health – and that the price of inaction could be twice as high as that of a 'structured lockdown'.
[...]
It divides the working population into 'core workers' – those in healthcare as well as food and transportation, sanitation and energy supply, among others – and then everyone else, and models the spread of the virus if no action is taken.

“Without public health restrictions, the random spread of the disease will inevitably hit sectors and industries that are essential for the economy to run,” said co-author Prof Giancarlo Corsetti, from Cambridge’s Faculty of Economics.

“Labour shortfalls among core workers in particular strip more value from the economy. As essential team members within this core sector drop out of the workforce, it impairs production far more than losing those in other areas of the economy.”

By separating the core and non-core workers, the study suggests that the economy would shrink by 30% or more without lockdown and social distancing. “By ignoring this division in the workforce, we may badly underestimate the true depth of economic damage,” Corsetti said.

Using data from the US Bureau of Labour Statistics, the researchers then quantified the share of workers who could 'reasonably keep performing occupational tasks at home': 15% of those in core sectors, and 40% of everyone else currently working – along with 30% of all non-working age people, from children to the retired. This puts a third of the entire population on lockdown.

In this scenario, the infection curve is smoothed out through social distancing, and the rate of loss in economic output is around 15%, just half the level of damage if no action is taken to prevent disease spread.

Sickness rates for core workers would be the same as the rest of the population, the high levels of social distancing elsewhere act as a shield.

“This overarching policy flattens the curve,” said Corsetti. “The peak of the infected share of the population drops from 40% to about 15%. However, this is still far too high given the capacities of healthcare systems.”

So the researchers also modelled a scenario where infection rates are kept to a manageable level for healthcare services of under 1.5% of the population for 18 months – the length of time many believe it will take for a vaccine to arrive.

This would mean lockdown shares of 25% of core workers, 60% of workers outside of core, and 47% of non-working age people. Under this scenario, the economy contracts by 20%.

The study also looked at a very strict lockdown – 40% of core workers and 90% each of non-working age and everyone else – that lasts for just three months. Such a scenario simply delays the infection rates but prevents 'herd immunity', creating an economic drop comparable to that of taking no action in the first place.

SeperatedSwans · 11/05/2020 12:29

Soon a seperation in society will come, the risk takers, the risk adverse and the fearful well.

Excluding vunerable shielding groups.

The risk takers will return to work, return their children to school and when social/hospitality venues open will begin to use them. They will take the risk of covid to better their living experience.

The risk adverse may or may not do some or all of the above, but will take small steps that they are comfortable with to better their living experience.

The fearfull well, the noisiest group who will competitively sit in misery, shouting about how much they are a hero for sacrificing themselves, but are secretly envious about the risk takers living a good life, so shout it down and say it shouldn't happen because I'm a hero who's staying indoors.

The risk takers will take no notice of the fearfull well, however the risk adverse group are easily persuaded and governed by fear.

Till the fearful well start to man up a bit and stop screaming about naighbours, people entering shops in pairs and work places re-opening, we are at a stale mate.

shirleyschmidt · 11/05/2020 12:35

Agree with you, OP. The longer this goes on, the well-being of the majority is being forcibly sacrificed for a cause which isn't actually going to affect them. Surely those who are genuinely very fearful, or vulnerable, can choose to stay home - the rest should be free to prioritize their OWN livelihood and wellbeing.

LaurieMarlow · 11/05/2020 12:37

I just think it was simplistic to suggest those who are supporting lockdown are doing so because they are privileged, some have more reason than others to be scared.

Sure, but we’re fast coming to a point where people will have to make decisions based on their own circumstances, rather than imposing full scale lockdown on everyone.

It simply isn’t sustainable.

JumpiestBat · 11/05/2020 12:38

I definitely know a few people who are now reluctant to return to work or get their kids to school, not because of fear of spread of virus, but more because they've settled into a more peaceful rhythm at home or in one instance are quite enjoying furlow and being paid to do absolutely nothing.

daisychain01 · 11/05/2020 12:38

And just to state, in the Government's defence, they are putting these thoughts out there now, in advance to start employers thinking about preparation.

They would of course be open to criticism (along with every other criticism levelled at them!) if employers are told "right, all back to work in your offices, shops etc etc from Monday" with no lead time to do the advanced prep in their working environment.

mondaynoon · 11/05/2020 12:38

I don't want lockdown from now to eternity but I do want the numbers to be low enough so that track and trace will work. In the short term ending the lockdown early may help you but we might be better off getting the virus more under control so we can avoid another lockdown.

Many people think that the vulnerable and shielded exist in a bubble so they can just stay home and be OK. In reality, many vulnerable people need others to help them and if they are to survive we need low numbers and effective track and trace.

babynewt · 11/05/2020 12:40

Really hate the way the onus is put on workers "to go back to work if it's safe to do so" rather than the onus on employers some irresponsible organisations who were pressurising workers to go into work at the start of lockdown.

If this is anyone by the way, this may be helpful:

section 44 of the Employment Rights Act 1996, which gives workers the “right to cease work in circumstances of serious and imminent danger to themselves or others”

Devlesko · 11/05/2020 12:41

YABU, people could say it's alright for you, being furloughed, when they have to work.
People are allowed to feel how they do, your feelings don't trump others feelings.

Xenia · 11/05/2020 12:45

daisy, The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 have not changed and nor has the obligation generally under English law for employers to look after the safety of workers.
Eg my son has worked full time as normal throughout but his employer takes temperatures every morning and he does not go into anyone's homes and has not since lockdown.

babynewt - yes it is very difficult as only under 400 people under age 45 have died in the UK so arguably most people unless obese etc can safely work and have more chance of dying in a car accident at work than covid 19. It is certainly going to be litigation central for some lawyers however.

GlummyMcGlummerson · 11/05/2020 12:47

Yeah, but it’s also alright for you if you don’t have a kid/ member of your household who is at high risk due to heath

And if I did I'd keep them away from school. I wouldn't insist the healthy families stay away from school too though.

OP posts:
Ilovemypantry · 11/05/2020 12:48

@lyralalala

My god,do you live in a mansion?

Gwenhwyfar · 11/05/2020 12:48

"Look at China, Italy, France, Spain where people were confined to their house or had to carry permits to leave."

In France they sign their own permits, it's no stricter than here.

Devlesko · 11/05/2020 12:50

The risk takers will return to work, return their children to school and when social/hospitality venues open will begin to use them. They will take the risk of covid to better their living experience.

OMG, yes, we need these people to bring up the peak during summer holidays, if we all stay in nobody will catch it/die and we'll be in limbo for ever.
Let's hear it for the risk takers, they are the real heroes, I haven't got the courage to risk my life.

Grendlsmother · 11/05/2020 12:50

SeperatedSwan ... I think I love you
"Till the fearful well start to man up a bit and stop screaming about naighbours, people entering shops in pairs and work places re-opening, we are at a stale mate."
Yes totally plus the whole rest of your post

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