To think "it's alright for you" for those who want lockdown for now until eternity?

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

I've seen, on both MN and social media, outrage after the PM announcement last night that strict lockdown won't be in place any more. Lots of sensationalist "great so now people can come to the Dales and kill us all" type posts. Furious that builders can go back to work and school children can go back to school in June to "kills us all". People are saying we should have lockdown until there's a vaccine, or until September. All these people on social media either:

• work from home anyway
• run their business from home
• didn't work anyway

AIBU in thinking "yeah it's alright for you!". Some of us need to return to work to keep a living and roof over our heads. I am furloughed until the end of the month but if my workplace can't re-open by around July then my job is basically fucked. I'm a single parent to 2, my ex runs a business that also relies on lockdown being eased, so if he loses his business then I lose maintenance payments.

I think it also shows a woeful misunderstanding of what lockdown is for. It wasn't implemented so that we could stay at home while the virus fairy magicked corona virus away. It was never the expectation that lockdown would solve the virus problem. There will be a second peak - NHS barely survives flu season as it is, it's important that the next peak doesn't coincide with the inevitable flu peak

Gwen
I can categorically tell you the lockdown has been more strict in France. How do I know? Apart from the fact that I have family there, police forces in France definitely do not police the population by consent. They all carry firearms for starters.

THIS sums it up:

"SeperatedSwans Mon 11-May-20 12:29:39
Soon a seperation in society will come, the risk takers, the risk adverse and the fearful well.
Excluding vunerable shielding groups.
The risk takers will return to work, return their children to school and when social/hospitality venues open will begin to use them. They will take the risk of covid to better their living experience.
The risk adverse may or may not do some or all of the above, but will take small steps that they are comfortable with to better their living experience.
The fearfull well, the noisiest group who will competitively sit in misery, shouting about how much they are a hero for sacrificing themselves, but are secretly envious about the risk takers living a good life, so shout it down and say it shouldn't happen because I'm a hero who's staying indoors.
The risk takers will take no notice of the fearfull well, however the risk adverse group are easily persuaded and governed by fear.
Till the fearful well start to man up a bit and stop screaming about naighbours, people entering shops in pairs and work places re-opening, we are at a stale mate.

Indeed, at the moment the fearful are very noisy and act completely inappropriately in relation to any risk that they personally have (the media have really hyped this group up into a frenzy). This group will happily shut the country down and seem unable to actually have a balanced view point. How on earth did any in this group function before - cross the road - wow - no far too risky (more risky than dying from Covid for 99% of people), fly on a plane, travel on a train, walk down the road.... how did this group ever manage to do ANYTHING prior to covid and how will they manage to do anything ever again - without hang wringing

‘I'm sure for many of the hysterics that you mention it is a case of keeping 'outsiders' away for as long as possible. It is simple common sense, if you are over 70 or vulnerable then stay indoors, which was the advice from the start.’

We’ve just been told to go back to work. There was no exception for the vulnerable due to illness, pregnant women or the over 70s. Only the highly vulnerable shielding group are being told they can stay at home.

And people in the vulnerable group who are key workers have been working throughout.

There isn’t an option to stay at home.

Just because you can do more doesn't mean you have to. If your local pub reopens you don't have to go. You don't have to visit elderly relatives if you think it's too soon. Others need to get back to work but if you don't you can keep up with the restrictions.

I get lockdown, I dont think it was wrong....but I cant understand why the government are only starting to think about quarantining people who come into the country....even after suspecting in late February/March that people who had been on holiday to Italy might be at risk. A relative of mine came back from Australia last month. He had to travel through 3 airports on the way home but had no advice to quarantine or self isolate.

Yes, I get it. It's different for me, as I'm 50 myself and have suffered a lot from my COVID-19 symptoms. Plus my DH is 54 and has asthma (so Johnson doesn't seem old to me! ) and my DM and MIL are 80 and 79 respectively.

Having said that, we will be sending DD1 to school on 1st June. Because keeping her at home indefinitely isn't fair on her. The risk is something that we have to live with.

But I do say again that this virus can be damaging o people who don't end up in hospital. I've been unwell for over 2 months, as have people younger than me and without my vulnerabilities. There are quite a few of them on Mumsnet (see the thread 'my lungs are on fire').

Indeed some people don't have the option to stay at home.

The shielding group yes and need to.

Its the hysterical ones that I find laughable. They forget that other people in many occupations have worked throughout this (including people who are vulnerable) and yet they shriek constantly about locking down forever. It makes me think that a sizeable number in this group are cushioned from reality by either not having to work or working from home and so their histrionics feel total;y ok to them...

Swans is right! Stay in your house until a vaccine is found?? Keep your kids in with you! Who is going to pay for all of this? Is this fair on your kids?

Do it then and recognise that means no seeing relatives, no going shopping, no parties, no Xmas, no holidays, no travelling.

Most of the arguments on this thread are anecdotal.
It's relatively simple to understand that the majority of children are at an extremely low risk. If they can return to School and the parents return to work than they should. Children who are more vulnerable to the virus or live with someone vulnerable shouldn't yet.
I totally agree with the OP. On my Facebook the only people outraged at the suggestion of Schools reopening are those with no conflicting obligations.
I unfollowed a "friend" earlier who made a ridiculous statement that no loving parent would consider School before September. It's infuriating.

Xenia - stating this fact is relatively immaterial to my statement that the onus is being put on the employees to return to work, rather than the employer who has a duty under law to provide a safe working enviroment. Not all of the working population are under 45years either. In addition, the guidance from Boris Johnson last night did not specifically make reference to those who worked and were vulnerable, which is my point, the sole responsibility for this is on the employee. When many may have varied and completely legitimate concerns for returning to work, that is not to insinuate they are work-shy. They are understandably concerned either for themselves or a (vulnerable) loved one. This would put them in a precarious situation of capitulating to the demands of an employer against their very genuine concerns. Some employers, are exploitative and their concerns are only for the business, than there employees. This was very evident at the start of lockdown.

I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss people who have genuine anxieties and concerns as ‘the hysterical ones’, with such a vitriolic tone. I had rather thought that as a society we’re being encouraged to be more accepting and understanding of people with mental health issues, including anxiety. It’s just plain mean if you are someone who is of the ‘get out there, we’re all going to catch it anyway’ mentality to mock those who are anxious. It’s perfectly normal for some people to be desperately worried, just as it’s perfectly normal for some people not to be.

We’re all just trying to get through it all the best we can. Perhaps a bit of acceptance of how we all try to cope in different ways might be in order.

I've had COVID-19 symptoms for over 2 months now and I'm still suffering quite bad symptoms, bad cough, occasional temperature,nausea and extreme fatigue. It just won't go away. I get 'false dawns' when I appear to be getting better only to get worse again

There were a couple of people on the news the other day who reported similar recurrence of symptoms. I have no idea what that's about, the only thing like that that I've ever experienced is shingles and the neuralgia that came after it.

It sounds awful and I hope it doesn't go on too long.

SeperatedSwans your posts are spot on.

The prospect of real poverty for many is what we really should fear. Going to bed hungry most nights. That isn't a situation which thankfully even most people currently on benefits have had to face before. It could happen.

@LakieLady

Thank you for that.

Yes I listened with interest, as you can imagine! It was helpful to know that there were others going through the same thing. My point here is that we shouldn't be only focusing only on the risk of dying, which is very small under the age of 60. There's still the possibility of becoming very unwell or making a loved one very unwell.

Indeed, at the moment the fearful are very noisy and act completely inappropriately in relation to any risk that they personally have

I'm not fearful for myself, although I'm 60+ and fat, I'm generally robust. Plus DP and I both had Covid-like symptoms a couple of weeks before lockdown started, so we may both have had it. It's other people I'm fearful for: my friend who's an HCP at a GPs, my friend who's 74 and not in good health, but most of all, people working in essential services that we all rely on like emergency services, supermarkets and waste collection/disposal. We need them to stay well.

They can't keep themselves safe like most of us can, so I feel that we have a duty to avoid risk as much as we possibly can to protect them and the services they provide. We all benefit from those services.

If it's so safe for children to go back to school how come Scotland, Wales and NI aren't doing it? Or could it be the Boris and the rest don't give a shit about the English people?

‘Its the hysterical ones that I find laughable. They forget that other people in many occupations have worked throughout this (including people who are vulnerable) and yet they shriek constantly about locking down forever. It makes me think that a sizeable number in this group are cushioned from reality by either not having to work or working from home and so their histrionics feel total;y ok to them...’

And I will be putting all those essential workers at risk soon, getting on public transport with them so that I can go to my job of selling you all plastic crap that you don’t need and could have ordered online rather than coming into store and infecting me in person.

To be fair, it would be alright if those who are shouting loudest for lockdown to continue for the foreseeable future would live their locked down lives quietly without spreading unfounded fear.
We still after all live in a fairly accepting society where people on the whole can be whoever they want to be.
But equally those of us who are able to risk assess should be given the freedom to do so.
Obviously if only a small number of us are willing to go back out into the world, there will not be enough tax revenue to support those who won't. The latter can then make a decision as to how they wish to fund their lives.
Everyone should be able to make their own decisions but at the moment it seems to be those who are most hysterical allowing the government (which obviously was never going to have a plan, because hard work and reasoned long-term planning is not their thing) to simply not govern and just let lockdown drift on with no exit strategy.
They fear an exit strategy because they care about Covid deaths, which are reported, but don't care about either current or long term deaths from anything else because they are not, and will not be, reported daily.
The risk to most from Covid is small. The long term risks from continued lockdown aren't.

They forget that other people in many occupations have worked throughout this (including people who are vulnerable) and yet they shriek constantly about locking down forever.

How do I make life safer for NHS staff and bus drivers by going out and spreading infection? NHS staff have been some of the strongest proponents of Stay At Home.

I don't suffer from any MH problems but I have at least 2 colleagues who appear to have suffered physical permanent damage from covid. Not ill enough to feature in any ICU stats, but in and out of hospital after 6 weeks, heart, kidneys and other areas playing up, not knowing if they will ever be back to normal again.

I also have a daughter who spent nearly a year trying to learn how to walk normally after she contracted some kind of flu virus Easter before last. If Covid hits her now that may well be the end of her. Yet she doesn't feature in any vulnerable or shielding statistics because nobody knows why she becomes so ill with illnesses that most people seem to pass through relatively unscathed. Yet my son has to return to work in a fast-food outlet on Wednesday.

From the latest news it seems this virus is mutating rapidly at the moment with more and more serious effects on young people.

It is also not at all clear that we have reached the point in the curve where other countries have felt safe to relax social isolation. Britain, Sweden and the US are the three countries that do not seem to be showing a steady downwards turn. If you read foreign newspapers, they are bemused at the way the Brits are handling this.

@Nameofchanges, I'd love to know what you do or what sector you work in, if that's not too outing. And are they taking any steps to mitigate risk to staff?

Even if my employer insisted we all go back to working from an office (and I'm looking forward to getting back to normal, which is a mixture of office and community based), I'd flatly refuse to set foot across the threshold unless 50% or so of desks were left empty so that the 2 metre rule could be followed.

Not that they ever would insist, they were incredibly on the ball and installed hand gel dispensers at every doorway (both sides!), wipes and anti-bac spray at every work station, including the franking machine, photocopiers etc and bought loads more laptops and Citrix licences to enable WFH well before lockdown was announced.

They run a number of supported housing schemes and residential homes for people with LDs, and have not yet had a single Covid case among residents, probably because they also had the foresight to order in shedloads of PPE.

Employers have a duty of care to provide a safe working environment. If they're not, that's a matter for the HSE and the union (if there is one).

NHS staff have been some of the strongest proponents of Stay At Home.

Yes, to take the heat off the NHS in the first wave. Not forever.

I’m sure NHS workers are well aware of how they are funded and the need to keep the economy going to continue that funding. I doubt they’re willing to work for free or much reduced wages.

Honestly as a community worker caring for a vunerable section of society, I'm at risk anyway. When I go to Tesco, when I go to work, when I meet clients.

You staying 2 meters away from me, washing your hands, and staying at home of you have symptoms is just fine. I'm not bothered.

I think face covering should become a norm, because it would limit the transfer of the virus from asymptomatic people. I'd support compulsory face coverings as a risk management strategy.

We can't bankroll society staying at home. So it's time to take some responsibility and follow the guidelines and start paying back in to the system many have spent 8 weeks receiving a very generous hand out from. Because if nobody pays in, there's nothing to pay out. We don't have the trillions to inject like the US does. You can't weather any storm if you cause a shipwreck. Better to limp through patching as you go than run the ship aground.

From the latest news it seems this virus is mutating rapidly at the moment with more and more serious effects on young people

I presume you’re talking about the literal handful of cases that much has been made of?

Death rates among the young are lower right now that historical averages:

The meter rule remember was just invented out of nowhere. It has no scientific basis - indeed a sneeze spread it very widely, just like you can catch chickenpox from someone another aisle down from you at the supermarket.

I certainly agree it is going to be hard for employers to decide what is safe - eg teachers have been working throughout with children of doctors and nurses in schools presumably at some risk particularly given the jobs of those parents.. I think my son's employers have done a good job at protecting - all workers working full time since the lockdown as they deliver food to homes. My doctor sibling has also worked full time throughout including 3 weeks without a day off recently although with some work done by phone etc

We are all in a new normal and employers and workers and we self employed having to decide in a free and liberal society what our own views and risk decisions will be.

The ability to continue to go to work has been in the legislation since day 1 for all but a few who can work fro home or who are in closed down places like shops.

Nobody is forcing you to go out or go to work. You can quit your job, stay home and home school your children. But I will not bankroll you. The government doesn't have the money and we shouldn't risk a deep recession because people are too scared to go to work. What if lockdown continues, we go into a horrific recession and 5 years from now I die of cancer because the NHS doesn't have money to treat me properly?

People are living in dreamland because of the furlough scheme but this is going to be a rough recession and we can't risk making it even worse by staying in lockdown for another 12 months until we get a vaccine.

If you're scared and want to isolate. Go ahead. I'll be going into work and paying your benefits, thanks.