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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why the Brits are so obsessed with WW2?

483 replies

MrsSchadenfreude · 08/05/2020 22:28

My Mum is 87. She was 12 when the war ended and went through it in London. She remembers being terrified and hungry and getting grief because her grandmother was German. Other elderly relatives don’t have lovely memories either, apart from relief when it was all over. So why do we glorify it all, at every opportunity? Why do we always look back instead of forward?

OP posts:
Peregrina · 08/05/2020 23:52

You thought wrong, but for the reason that the Britain of then meant the British Empire - not just the UK as now. So Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India all sent troops which counted as part of the 'we' standing alone.

SarahAndQuack · 08/05/2020 23:54

That's awful, @CorianderLord :-(

Random452 · 08/05/2020 23:56

I thought there was a period when Britain was alone though. In 1940, the USA hadn't entered the war and the Soviet Union had a pact with Germany so they were at that point allies

Britain was never alone. USA and USSR were not the only players.
Britain had troops from their colonies and places like Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Ireland. Some of those countries may not have officially declared war, but they contributed a lot to the war effort.

Eskarina1 · 08/05/2020 23:58

My grandparents were young adults during the war. My granny always said it was the best time of her life, she had a freedom and a career she'd never have dreamed of, went out to meet soldiers with her friends and she fell in love. In terms of the opportunities she, and many women had, it changed everything.

It's still a part of the personal histories of many of us. The trauma my grandfather experienced as a pow was passed on to my grandmother and my father, and to a lesser extent through my father to me. My great aunts loss of her fiance during the war, meant she became a second mum to my mum and the centre of our family.

This year, it's a link in traumatic times to people I love and who were my foundation when young.

Random452 · 08/05/2020 23:58

I also object to the 'we' factor. We have done nothing. We were not even alive when it happened, or for long after in most cases. It implies superiority by virtue of our nationality, which when you think about it, was one of the ideas that led the world into war to start with

Thank you! The way some people bang on you'd think they were personally responsible for ending the whole thing.

elizabethdraper · 08/05/2020 23:58

No one has mentioned Ireland. Surprise s surprise

Thousands of Irish men fought and died in both wars.

My great grandfather being o be in them

But carry on you did it all alone. Arnt he all fabulous

eaglejulesk · 08/05/2020 23:59

'We' didn't stand alone against the world, wtf kind of history did some of you learn in school? The Russians, French, Poles, Indians, Americans, Aussies, Kiwis, Dutch and several colonised African countries fought on the side of the Allies.

This. I am shocked at some of the ignorance on here.

Random452 · 09/05/2020 00:02

*No one has mentioned Ireland. Surprise s surprise

Thousands of Irish men fought and died in both wars.

My great grandfather being o be in them

But carry on you did it all alone. Arnt he all fabulous*

I just did

Lost several ancestors in WW1, and my Grandpa came from the free state to the UK during the war. I don't know what kind of history people are reading, but it's all wrong.

user1471565182 · 09/05/2020 00:02

ohh ffs why would we mention Ireland? its a different country that remained neutral. Yes we already know irish men came into the british army. Are you going to mention all 50 or so other countries who did the same everytime this is brought up?

eaglejulesk · 09/05/2020 00:02

You thought wrong, but for the reason that the Britain of then meant the British Empire - not just the UK as now. So Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India all sent troops which counted as part of the 'we' standing alone.

I suspect most of those countries thought they were fighting as Allies, not as Britain.

SarahAndQuack · 09/05/2020 00:03

But equally, @Eskarina1, for many more people than had positive experiences, it meant death and fear and trauma and pain.

I have always thought we should celebrate for the sake of the veterans and survivors who want it - even though I know from my own experience that they do not represent everyone.

But, now, I do not feel at all comfortable with the way that the mantle has been passed to a generation who never fought. We are encouraged to equate the 70+ generation with the survivors of the war, and that is absurd. My dad is 70; he was born in 1950. He grew up with the Beetles. He wore flares. He bought a house when mortgages were tuppence ha'penny. He is not the person who bravely survived the Blitz and fought of the Nazis, and he'd be embarrassed to pretend so.

His dad, OTOH, could barely talk about it all and didn't want to discuss celebrations. And he'd actually lived through it.

user1471565182 · 09/05/2020 00:04

I ntocie you dont talk about how those irish who fought with britain were treated afterwards.

DamnYankee · 09/05/2020 00:05

@OhCaptain
American, here.
I can think of a few film directors (i.e. Spielberg and Hanks) who are seemingly fascinated, but their films have been very, very gritty. Not glorifying at all.
My grandfathers would not discuss it. They served (one as a Lt. Colonel) and both witnessed horrors and would totally shut down if you asked them about it.
Although my grandmothers never discussed it, I think they were affected, particularly in terms of food shortages. One GM passed that on to my mom, and until her dying day, Mom got anxious if the pantry wasn't full...
Most Americans of my acquaintance laud the "Greatest Generation"; however, I think we all know that some of the generation was great, self-sacrificing, etc., and some weren't.

BeingLonely · 09/05/2020 00:05

Because my wee granny says it was the worst time/environment possible. It was terrifying and unbelievably heartbreaking. She remembers all the sacrifices made and the lives lost. It’s not about glorifying it’s about adoring the heroes of that generation

user1471565182 · 09/05/2020 00:06

At that point (in the first war certainly and to a lesser extent the 2nd) huge amounts of people in Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc. thought of themselves as British first. They fought with British and Commonwealth forces, as the british and commonwealth, with British weapons, ranks, uniforms, traditions and the rest.

ChinookPilotsGoVertical · 09/05/2020 00:08

We stood alone between Dunkirk & the invasion of Russia. In that time people came from the all over the world to join the cause of freedom. They came here because we were the only ones still fighting. From here (which includes the empire) they went forward to victory.
Couple of notes brought about by previous posts -
Ireland produced more volunteers than any other country except New Zealand
"the USSR played a huge part in liberating Europe". True but the countries they liberated weren't liberated very long were they? The suffering of the Soviets was huge & the war wouldn't have been won without them, but they weren't fighting with the same intentions as the other allies with regard to the postwar geopolitik.

Random452 · 09/05/2020 00:10

By law, Irish people were British subjects at that time, and until around 1948. As were most people who came from the Empire countries. They were fighting for the Queen as much as the British troops.
You believe in jingoistic claptrap.

Random452 · 09/05/2020 00:12

"the USSR played a huge part in liberating Europe". True but the countries they liberated weren't liberated very long were they? The suffering of the Soviets was huge & the war wouldn't have been won without them, but they weren't fighting with the same intentions as the other allies with regard to the postwar geopolitik
This is true, but in fairness, and the point I was trying to make was, the allies may not have won the war without them. What the Soviet Army did (during and after) was horrific, though, I am not defending that.

Giespeace · 09/05/2020 00:13

It's not the war that's being glorified, it's the people who sacrificed their time, effort, health, money and lives to try to bring lasting peace for others

Yes to this. Plus it’s celebrating the peace which has existed in Europe ever since (Balkans excepted).

It’s OUR family history. Each and every one of us. All of our families were involved and affected in one way or another.

My Grans sister was delivered in a bomb shelter during the Clydebank blitz. My grandfather was in the merchant navy - a dangerous job which is often overlooked in the rollcall of heroes. Today he’d be called a “key worker” and have pots banged in his honour. My great grandmother sacrificed her health making bombs. An uncle was a gunner on HMS Hood.
So no, “we” didn’t win the war because I wasn’t born yet, but it does rather feel like my family - my people - jolly well had a hand in it and participated in all the hard work and sacrifice and I’ll be damned if I ever let myself or my children forget it.

TheSandman · 09/05/2020 00:15

I find it distasteful that remembrance days have been hijacked by flag waving far right groups. (poppy wearing shaming etc etc).

Apart from that, I have no issues with people "celebrating" in whatever way they see fit

This.

And by NOT taking part in the bunting and teaparty nostalgia-driven nonsence that went on today, I exercised the very freedom that so many fought and died for.

user1471565182 · 09/05/2020 00:16

Why did the Irish government label men who went to fight as deserters? why should we spend VE remembering the likes of De Valera sending a message of condolence on Hitler's death?

For those wondering, this is why the English arnt allowed to be patriotic.

TheSandman · 09/05/2020 00:16

Yes to this. Plus it’s celebrating the peace which has existed in Europe ever since (Balkans excepted).

And Northern Ireland.

CatAndHisKit · 09/05/2020 00:18

It's the VICTORY that's being glorified, after years of hardship and struggle and deaths that was imposed on millions by the Nazis, not the war being glirified, obviously! It's also the union of nations celebrated as no one could win by themselves. Are you for real, OP?

Headbangersandmash · 09/05/2020 00:19

There's an awful lot of pics on social media of non socially distanced parties. While people fought for our freedom to be covidiots, I hope that it's not half as bad as it looks and there's no spike in a fortnight

ostinato · 09/05/2020 00:19

The British experience in WW2 was unique...no other country has had similar. The men going overseas to fight was the only “normal” thing about it.

WW2 happened at a particular moment in the development of military technology. The Germans had the ability to devastate our cities with bombs and blockade our ports stopping access to imports of food and goods. But the technology wasn’t good enough to be decisive (it is now, but mutual deterrence applies).

The result of this was that the war was fought here as well as overseas, and every person in the country took part, which is pretty unheard of. Civilians were killed in bombing raids, children were evacuated out of cities, women entered the workforce as never before, often in war related work such as munitions factories. Any spare land or garden was given over to agriculture. The blackout was strictly enforced as was rationing. (The blackout was a kind of lockdown, especially in winter because the was literally no light outside...if there was no moon it was pitch darkness and people either had to grope about risking injury or stay put.) Men who couldn’t fight worked as fire wardens. Road signs were removed in order to confuse any invaders, and a home guard militia set up. People had bomb shelters in their gardens and were issued with gas masks out of fear that mustard gas and similar that was used on the battlefields of WW1 would be dropped by bombs onto the civilian population.

There was the sense of facing overwhelming odds and not giving up. The retreat at Dunkirk was both a disaster and a triumph with hundreds of small boats being taken by ordinary people to help evacuate the troops. So while it’s absolutely true to say the the US won the war in a military sense, the British survived, didn’t surrender and fought back. If we hadn’t it would have been far harder for the Americans to win because we provided the base for the counter-attack against the Nazis.

And in doing all of this there were great acts of heroism and innovation. The Few held the skies and prevented both greater losses from bombing and the prospect of invasion. The RAF suffered horrific losses in the first years of the war. Later, new types of bombs were developed to weaken the Nazi’s industrial heartlands, with extraordinary feats such as the dambusters raid (even if you could argue it wasn’t necessary by that stage of the war). The role of the codebreakers at Bletchley was secret at the time but vital to the end result. The unbelievable courage of the soldiers who went to Normandy, getting out of those boats and running up the beaches under heavy fire. The spies who went behind enemy lines to sabotage the Nazi war effort and support resistance.

Wars often bring out the best in people as well as the worst. For the British in WW2 it was the fact that every person played a part and there was so much courage every day from ordinary people who would never normally have anything to do with war or fighting. The impact went on for a long time after. Rationing wasn’t lifted until 1954, so a whole new generation was co-opted into the war effort after the fact. And the bomb sites. This had a lasting effect on the public consciousness. Even now, when you walk round London, it isn’t hard to spot the marks of the Blitz in the architecture.

We owe a huge debt to the WW2 generation. Their willingness to sacrifice not only their lives but their entire way of life eventually made the subsequent peace possible. And even if they weren’t willing, even if they had no choice, they endured 6 years of war and a further 9 years of rationing and economic hardship. They held on, and for that they deserve our gratitude.

We don’t glorify the war but we do remember and honour their sacrifice.