To be so worried about my Dad visiting today?

[Mincingfuckdragon2]

I don't think IABU, I really just need some advice. The relationships board might be a more appropriate spot, but I'm posting here in the hope that you all will give it to me straight.

My father is coming over to my place today (not in UK, it's mid morning here), and I'm worried about it.

Dad has a history of being a bit of an arsehole. He's quite controlling and still often speaks to all his children (who range in age from mid 20s to mid 40s) as though they're 10. Actually, it's worse than that - he can be quite abusive both physically (although not for 10 years or so) and certainly emotionally/mentally (yelling, namecalling, belittling). We generally all stand up to him, although it's exhausting. He's quite verbally abusive to my Mum though and I think she's scared of him.

Last time he was here (we can have 2 people who aren't members of our current household to visit as long as we stay 1.5 metres from each other at all times) he decided he was going to do some DIY on our house. I told him it wasn't necessary and he insisted. I caved because it was easier than having an argument with him - he gets quite cross if he offers help and any of his children refuse it. I think it's a form of controlling behaviour. (He always does a shit job too, but that's another story).

So he rang late yesterday afternoon and announced he'd be coming over today to do this work. I said OK. And now I'm really nervous and cannot work. I'm usually OK when he visits - I think it's because I'm here by myself with only the children as DH had to go into work today.

Last time he did any work at my house was about 2 years ago. He always gets angry when he works with others. This particular day day was pretty standard - he gradually got angrier and angrier, until he yelled and told me to 'bloody hurry up' because I didn't move a power cord quickly enough. I stood up to him and told him very firmly not to speak to me like that. He then got right up in my face and yelled into my face with such vitriol, and called me a "fucking bitch" amongst other delightful things. I told him he would have to leave if he couldn't behave. He backed down, went for a walk to cool off, then came back calm and said 'Well, we had a fight". I said words to the effect of 'Yes, and you behaved badly, and if you ever behave like that again you won''t be welcome here". He didn't say sorry. He muttered something or another then went back outside to finish the job. Then he left. He, as always, pretended nothing had happened. (For background - he never ever acknowledges that it is his fault, ever. These kind of altercations happened weekly when I was a child and very often escalated into violence and I had bruises/black eyes maybe once a year from it and he still almost never said sorry. On one occasion when he had punched me repeatedly, slapped my face, and dragged me about 3 metres on the ground by my hair, I didn't speak to him for 3 days. He then said "I've been feeling sick about this for 3 days. I shouldn't have hit you, but you make me so mad - more mad than anyone else does. Now give me a cuddle and let's put this behind us" or words to that effect. Then he pretended nothing had happened. I was 11 or 12 at the time. He has since claimed he 'can't remember' doing any of those things. My mum and brother saw him, so he actually did do them. He has also pulled me off a horse then kicked me while I was on the ground and told me to stop snivelling like a dog. He's also denied doing that. So he's not nice).

I was pretty low contact with him for a year or so after this experience while working with him, including because he started being mean to my daughters including about their weight so I reduced contact. He was a lot better for a while, but in January he came to the house again and flipped out because one of my nephews (I'll call him Jay) couldn't get his boots off to come inside for lunch so he told Jay that Jay wasn't allowed to have any lunch. I told Dad not to be so ridiculous, that it was my house and I didn't care if Jay came inside with his boots on and that Jay would be getting lunch regardless. Cue what I can only describe as a tantrum from Dad - stomping around, raising his voice, and lots of passive aggressive comments said in a loud sarcastic voice ('Fine", "Well you should do what you want" "What I think doesn't matter' and the like). This behaviour is very common for Dad. I stood up to him, and told him to 'Just stop it' and treated him a bit like a toddler having a tantrum. This was quite effective and seemed to shut Dad up. Jay got lunch in the end and Dad sulked for about an hour - he went downstairs to 'discuss' my behaviour with my mother and I could hear him whispering at her that 'She can't speak to me like that' and "She should have dealt with that differently" and various other things (My poor mum - he did this where I could hear on purpose I suspect. He bullies her too.).

Anyway, he's coming round today and I'm worried. I've gained a bit of weight during isolation and this always annoys him - he doesn't say anything but he will look me up and down repeatedly or stare at my fat bits with a look on his face like he smells something bad. It makes him more picky about other things too. I guess the fact I've gained weight makes me worried he's more likely to be angry and to become abusive.

So yes, I know he's an arsehole. I stand up to him pretty firmly these days - I'm reasonably tough and am used to dealing with arseholes at work. I used to get upset and cry, now I just get angry (it's taken years, I'm in my 40s). I'm happy to kick him out if he's being a twat, I've done it before. I don't know why I'm so bothered by this today. I think maybe because the last time he did work here he was so abusive and it really upset me, and today I'm by myself. Or maybe because I actually didn't want him to do the work in the first place but agreed anyway - so I feel on the back foot.

So any strategies you can suggest? Last time, speaking to him like an adult having a childish tantrum worked (except then he berated Mum instead of me - I feel terrible about that especially as I didn't step in, but she gets upset if we intervene), so I'm thinking I might do that again (eg in a firm voice 'Stop that please', "That is not a helpful way to behave", 'Don't speak like that please', 'Do you need a break to calm down?'). I think that worked last time as I didn't show any fear at all - once he sees fear he's like a shark who smells blood. But does anyone have any other suggestions?

Apologies for the word vomit, I'm actually a bit beside myself which is unusual.

Good lord are you me? Does my dad have a secret family abroad I don't know about?

Seriously, apart from the physical stuff, word for word, look for look you could be describing my dad. My sympathies.

My sister is much better at dealing with him than I am, she takes no shit, and snaps "Don't talk to me like that". I tend to go for a grey wall? Grey rock? I can't remember what it's called, google it though, where you just make yourself really boring and don't react to the bullshit. He gets bored of me and stops.

My best advice though, given the physical aggression in your childhood, would be to not feel any qualms in walking away.

I only see mine 2 or 3 times a year due to geographical distance, and that's bearable. You don't have to put up with it. I'm sorry you're feeling like this. I'm guessing he had a similar upbringing, with a critical father? Mine did. Me understanding that helped a lot.

Why the he’ll are you letting a man into your hone that may abuse you in front of your children? You owe this asshole absolutely nothing and your poor children are going to grow up thinking this is Burma’s behaviour between adults. I know you’re going to come up with all sorts of excuses as to why you have to let him into your home, but that what they are, excuses. You deserve better and your children especially deserve better.

@LemonySippet - thank you. That made me cry a little bit. My sympathies to you too - it's pretty shitty sometimes.

I don't know where it comes from. His dad was a bit stern about things like good manners, but was gentle as far as I know - he's still around and has always been great with his grandchildren and greatgrandchildren. I know his mum could be a bit sharp but I don't think she was abusive (she's always been lovely with me, I think she mellowed somewhat as she got older and she was genuinely horrified the one time I told her what Dad could be like). Both his siblings are pretty normal/civilised. I think it's just him.

I sometimes think about cutting contact entirely but I want my Mum to have a good relationship with her grandkids (because apart from not protecting us as kids she's a pretty awesome person) so he has to stay in the picture because she won't leave him and she relies on him for transport. And when he's not being a dick he's good fun. I don't let the kids spend time with him without me, so they get the good parts of him only as far as I'm aware. And I'm pretty upfront with them that I will have their back 100% of the time in any disagreement/issue with him.

Oooh, DH just came home early. I've told him I want him next to me at all times today when I'm speaking with Dad, so that's made me feel better. Writing it all down has helped too.

Thanks for the grey rock suggestion. I've used it with him before - it only works when he's not really angry though.

Deep breaths! And thanks for reading through that novella above
and responding.

I wouldn't have any contact with a man like that.
You owe him nothing.
If your dm stays with him that's her choice but you don't have to choose to ever be in a room with a violent bully so why would you?

Yep, TotallyF, you're right. Cross post.

I worry about this a fair bit. Part of me says it would be better to have no contact. Another part disagrees mainly for the reasons in my second post above.

My kids have only ever seen me standing up to him, firmly and (mostly) relatively calmly. I talk to them about his behaviour and how unreasonable it is, and how it's never ever OK to hit or abuse or manipulate. They know why I let him visit still (ie because I want them to have a relationship with their grandmother). They know what to do if he ever starts being short with them (not that it's really an issue because I'm always there). They see me managing his behaviour, and I use it as a teaching moment for how to deal with manipulative childish arseholes.

I don't know. Maybe I should cut him off entirely.

My children have never seen him be violent or physically threatening to me or anyone else, but they know he's done that to me in the past because I've told them (well, more DD12, the other one is a bit young yet).

They've not AFAIK seen him be verbally abusive either.

They've seen a fair bit of his stomping, sulking and PA behaviour though - and I've used that as an opportunity to teach them why that behaviour is bad and that they don't have to put up with it.

Would you let your children put up with somebody like this in their lives?

I think (Hope) not.

You deserve better. You have been emotionally and physically abused. He is a bully. Your mum enables him. And you tolerate him. You shouldn’t dread someone coming to your house, give in to their insistence to do diy, etc - particularly given how it ended last time.

Honestly grandparents aren’t as necessary in children’s lives.

I do feel terribly sorry for you OP and I hope you manage to come to a decision, but when you say:

I’ve used that as an opportunity to teach them why that behaviour is bad and that they don't have to put up with it.

You’re not actually teaching them that they don’t have to put up with it, because it’s actually happening in their own home, every time your father behaves like that. You’re taking the talk, while allowing an abusive man to stomp around, silk and be PA in what should be a place where your children feel secure.

Here's an idea - call him up and tell him you've changed your mind and you don't want him coming over.

Just do it. Let him shout over the phone rather than in person. You went lo-contact for a while and when you let him back in he was nasty. So go no/lo-contact again. Do it now before he gets the chance to be vile in front of your kids again.

I don't know. Maybe I should cut him off entirely

Yep! I honestly don’t understand why you allow him back in. You have the power to prevent him from trampling all over you, use it.

OP it sounds like you are in a shit position. If you cut him off it sounds as though DM will go passively along with it and you’ll lose contact with her too. I can understand posters saying cut contact, but also can understand you want your DM in your life. If she’s lived with him this long she’ll never stand up to him now though

You already sound like you have a good plan though and have evidence it works. If he throws a tantrum treat him like a toddler. If he ever does so in front of your children you do need to tell him to leave though, tell him to come back when he’s calmed down and is ready to apologise and stick to it

@Snaleandthewhail Your mum enables him another way of phrasing this could be that mum is a long time victim, and is too scared to voice objections.

TotallyF - you're right. I have never thought about it like that - that I actually do put up with his behaviour. It's not to the same degree as I experienced growing up (which was really abusive at times) but I still let him come to my house and behave badly.

So I can't teach my kids properly how not to put up with bad behaviour - because I'm not setting the right example by continuing to put up with it, even if it's not as bad as it used to be. For me, standing up to him was a HUGE step forward and felt like a win but you're right - they won't see it like that and will just see me continuing to allow in my life someone who still doesn't treat me properly.

That makes me feel a bit scared. I don't know why.

Idk which country you’re in. However, is your mum making a choice to stay with your dad? Ie would she be able to get somewhere to stay, money and be legally protected if she left?

If yes, the choice your mum is making to stay with your father mean consequences for her. I also think you’re not showing your dcs to not put up with this behaviour. Perhaps you can find a way to see your mother alone.

@Mummyoflittledragon, I'm in Australia. So she could leave and be legally protected. She'd get half of their not-insubstantial assets also.

I wish she would leave, but she won't. I've spoken with her about it before and told her that she can stay with us permanently and we would support her financially. She would still be able to see all her children and grandchildren as everyone would side with her not him. She just won't do it. I don't know if it's because she loves him or she's scared. Maybe both. Probably both.

I see Mum alone reasonably often (every 8 weeks or so, we don't live near each other) and we speak on the phone a few times a week. He's an arsehole but not to the degree that I can't see/speak to her alone.

I don't know if I could do that to her though (ie in effect cut her off too).

@Thepigeonsarecoming Yes, both descriptions are apt I think. I don't think he's ever hit her (I've never seen him even physically intimidate her) but then she wouldn't tell me if he had.

@Snaleandthewhail - This is true: You deserve better. You have been emotionally and physically abused. He is a bully. Your mum enables him. And you tolerate him. You shouldn’t dread someone coming to your house, give in to their insistence to do diy, etc - particularly given how it ended last time

What about speaking to him when he arrives (quietly and not in front of others so as not to make him embarrassed/defensive) and saying something like:

"It's good to see you dad but I want to be clear about something. I've often struggled to know how to respond when you behave in an aggressive or belittling manner to me. Lately, you may have noticed I've started to stand up to that a little. From now on I will be taking that further. If you cannot speak to me in a pleasant and respectful way in my own home, in front of my children, then you will be asked to leave straight away. No second chances. Now I've got that out of the way, come on in, would you like a cup of tea, blah blah...".

Not a conversation, no room for questioning, just you letting him know how it's going to be. His choice whether to stick around.

Ultimately as sad as it is then OP you will need to give your DM a choice. Tell her for the sake of your children you are cutting contact with DF. Explain you reasons and how it was for you growing up. Tell her she can still be a part of your lives but alone.

Not sure if you're in Australia or not. But even though we have a 2 person limit I still don't allow anyone over because I have small children and people can't help themselves but to try and touch or hold kids!

My dad is the exact same was physically and verbally abusive but claims to not remember he even tells me off for telling my own child off (go figure)
Perhaps after this visit, go no contact don't respond if he wants to come over.

I would not let this abusive, controlling man back in your house. You have literally said you do not feel comfortable without your OH there with you when your father is there.
I would call and tell him you’ve changed your mind, he is not needed for the DIY, and he is not to come over. If he arrives, don’t let him in.

Having dealt with a family member very similar OP, I sympathise.

In the case of my family, it was learned behaviour, across three generations, great grandfather, grandfather, father.

I would simply refuse to put up with it.
I would cut all contact and encourage your mother to change the dynamics of her dependant relationship with him.

You cannot live your mother's life for her, but you can change your relationship with your father.

Your children are watching and learning how a man, supposedly is allowed to behave towards his family. Unless and until your father treats you with respect he is not welcome and has no place in your life. Sorry, but that is just how it has got to be.

Your husband presumably came home early only because your father was coming to visit and he wanted to avoid trouble, anger, violence etc, not good enough!

Could you go to counselling to learn how to how to relate to him?
Are you in Aus OP? If so an experienced GP could advise you where to seek counselling.

The bottom line is bullying, abuse, swearing is just not acceptable in your home, so neither is he!

Best wishes OP, you do not have to put up with this. I for sure would not!

Sorry, just a postscript OP.
If your F starts bullying, becomes abusive or worse, I absolutely would not hesitate in calling the police, they are used to dealing with this kind of unreasonable behaviour. Best wishes.

Thanks everyone. Especially @tenshortstories - thank you. That is very helpful.

He turned up just now (unannounced as fucking always) when I was in the middle of having a cry. I haven't said anything to him as I feel a bit too vulnerable. He's asked me to help him and I've said I can't. I'm not going to say anything today (unless he kicks off - in which case I'm going to ask him to leave).

Here's what I'm thinking I should do - I'd be grateful for any/all suggestions.

1. This coming week, I will speak to both parents at the same time and say the following:

• I enjoy seeing you and spending time with you both, except when Dad is angry, agitated or upset.
• I've often struggled to know how to respond when Dad behaves in an aggressive or belittling manner to me or in front of the children.
• Over the last couple of years, you may have noticed I've started to stand up to that behaviour.
• From now on I will be taking that further. If you cannot speak to me and other family members in a pleasant and respectful way in my own home and in front of my children, then you will be asked to leave straight away. If we are somewhere else when it happens, we will leave. We won't be discussing it.
• If that happens (ie if you are asked to leave or we leave in these circumstances) then I won't be in contact for a while to give you time to have a think about how to improve things.
• Can you let me know if you understand this approach, so that we can stay in contact?

1. I will speak to Mum alone and say:

• I'm sorry if this makes it harder for her to see the grandchildren or if it means Dad takes it out on her.
• She can always visit and stay with us, as long as Dad doesn't come to the house unless invited.
• If he insists on coming with her to visit, please let me know and I'll make sure we're out when he arrives.

1. If he kicks off/refuses to engage, I will cut contact completely and will explain to my children that:

• As they know sometimes Grandpa doesn't behave in a kind, respectful, fair way.
• I have asked him to take some steps to learn how to behave kindly.
• We will be seeing him again when he has learned how to do that.
• We won't see him for a little while until then because it's not healthy to expose ourselves to people who are unkind to us.

@Rottnest thank you. I've had a few 'lots' of counselling - it's helped a lot but obviously I've a way to go. Funny, I was thinking last night whether I'd call the police if he kicked off and decided I would.

Thanks everyone, really. Actually this has been like a super intense counselling session, and very helpful.

I’d have used the Covid situation to put him off as long as possible. Who cares if the govt relaxes the rules, you get to decide how your own household will be moving forward.

Does he own the house you live in? Have a key? I’d be shutting down all of that shiz quick-smart. It’s controlling, not helpful. He doesn’t get to announce when he’s coming and for how long. Nosireeebob. Not even if you had a splendid childhood relationship.

Draw your boundaries based on what you’d prefer. Don’t stress about whether it’s reasonable to others, or better than it used to be, or might be seen as divisive. Just spell them out, without explanation, in a calm light way. ‘Actually that doesn’t suit us Dad. Those sorts of jobs can wait until much later in the year. Put your feet up, and let’s chat soon.’ If he kicks off on the phone, don’t get drawn in. Say ‘Good thing we put off your visit, you’re obviously in a very strange and antisocial mood. I’m hanging up now. Hope you feel better soon.’

Sounds like you need (further?) therapy to unpack your family stuff. You may be doing ‘better’, but the aim with snakes is to disentangle yourself and your loved ones from their poisonous bite. Not to offer your neck as long as they promise not to deliver a lethal dose!

Just popped in to say that I grew up with parents like this, only the other way around. It's only since they died that I realised that I am furious at how complicit Dad was and how he used me as a buffer to hide from Mum's fury which would have been aimed at her - when he was an adult who should have actually protected me. (Broken arms, etc.). I am also in Australia, but older than you sound, btw. You are minimising your mother's part in this. She is/was not helpless when you were growing up. You choose to see her that way so that you can continue to have the relationship with her that you want.

I would allow your father one chance - and tell him that the moment he becomes abusive, he is going to be told to leave the property. Make it clear that you did not ask him to come and do DIY on your property. He insisted because it is something he wanted to do. He did not take into consideration your needs or desires for the day - he just announced that he was turning up like a surprise royal visit and expected you to be pleased about it. Your house is not actually his spare shed for when he has run out of DIY jobs to ruin at his own place. (Might be worthwhile letting him know you have had to spend money getting contractors to correct his bodgy jobs.)