No tax credits for the third child. Does that mean some women will never be able to work?

[HowFurloughCanYouGo]

I just wondered if someone could explain it to me. I realise I'm being a bit thick.

Imagine someone who is still on tax credits, not UC. They have 5 children, 3 of which were born after the 3rd child cut off date for tax credits.

Single mum and she wants to go to work for the first time since the first child was born (this is a completely fictional person by the way).
If they don't have tax credits for the third fourth and fifth child, does that mean she wouldn't be able to work? Because she wouldn't have money for childcare?

How does that work?

No you don't get any help even if you pay for childcare. My youngest was born after the cut off and we have to pay nursery fee's out of our wages. Going to be a tight couple of years till they start school.

Hopefully your question has been answered now OP

@Squeekybummum that’s not true you do get help it’s just the same if you have two or four children for example. If you weren’t using childcare for your older children you could claim for your youngest.

@ILuvQuarintinis I meant all poorer families. The UK has a welfare state. If we want to adopt the attitude that you lie in the ditch that you dug, we might as well not help the single mothers or anyone else you deem undeserving. Like the NHS, the welfare state is built on 'need'. We help the obese and chronic smokers even though they probably made some bad decisions. As well as the chronic drunks that clog up A & E every Friday night. @peperethecat could I please ask you what do you mean by 'reasonably afford' it? For example, I live in London. The combined income i need for 1 child is £120K , taking into account current £1000 mortgage for a 2 bed flat, £1600 childcare and 20% post tax savings. The combined income I need for 2 children ( I have never calculated this in detail) is a lot more because i need to buy a 3 bed house for £1 million. It is something like £170,000 assuming a 20% deposit +equity and 4.5 income multiple . Of course my DH could leave me so does that mean that a woman should ensure that she has £120K/£170K income in case DH leaves? I think that if the London standard for having children was £170K, the birth rate would be a lot lower!

Both her and her DH should have thought this through before deciding a third was a good idea

@WinterAndRoughWeather people have to have more than 2 children to account for the people who are childless, people who are infertile. Ideal replacement rate is 2.5. I am an immigrant so i am +1. My only DC replaces my husband.

@Desiringonlychild You've made certain choices there, including living in London and owning rather than renting your home. If you have an income of £120k then you can reasonably afford two children even if you choose not to have two because you believe that giving two children the standard of living and lifestyle that you want is unaffordable on your income.

There are a lot of people who don't qualify for any benefits, have an income of less than £120k, work in London and have two children.

Wow this thread got going didn't it??

Yes it was a fictional person, kind of.
Basically what kicked it off was me getting the message that my third child won't get tax credits. It would have been a little amount anyway, DH and I both work so it would have helped a bit but as someone upthread said, we either earn too much or I've misunderstood it.
However it made me wonder, surely the government don't want people sitting on their bottoms squeezing out babies but if someone chose to do that and then wanted to go out to work, would it even be possible? What would be more taxing on the system, her being at home with her kids or her going out to work and tax credits/UC paying for the childcare?
It sounds like a complicated conundrum.
But as mentioned, waiting until they are all at school is basically the answer isn't it.
It was and it wasn't a fictional person in that I don't know anyone with 5 children who is trying to get back into work.
But I do know people with several children and I've always wondered if they would or if they even could.

@Desiringonlychild

alcohol and smoking are certainly choices but can also be classed as addictions or illnesses . Having loads of children isn't an addiction or illness - people need to stop having all these children if they can't afford it .

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Horlick

The website clearly says you can still receive childcare even if you don't qualify for the child tax element for a child, so if you don't qualify it's based on your earnings making you not eligible, not on the number of children you have.

The birth rate is already below 2 and falling so we need more babies or immigration.

If you had said 3 children it wouldn’t have gone this way, it’s because you said 5 that’s loads of people are piling on.

@Chockablok
Sorry, I'm calling bullshit. Surely you can see that since a huge amount of people are only earning £20k, that spending £20k on three children before any actual living expenses is not how the vast majority of people live.
Yes I can see that, I just believe that any decent parent would spend every penny of their child element of tax credits on their children and still find it didn’t cover everything. I don’t think they would be better off , ie have more disposable income for non child expenses the more dc they have.
Obviously that would not apply to some parents but I firmly believe “ feckless parents” are in the minority.

@peperethecat Renting my home is £1500, owning it is £1000 mortgage. You can only afford 2 children on £120K if you space them out (only have second child after first child qualifies for free childcare). Also the kids are probably sharing rooms (which is very common in London). And it would be much harder to save 20% of your post tax income with an extra child ! I believe in saving 20-50% of income but what I was trying to say from my illustration was that the bar for 'affording' children is actually very high, most people are winging it financially. I would not choose to be in that situation but I don't see the sense in judging someone who is. It is not kind and achieves no purpose. Its akin to someone from Oxbridge judging someone who went to an ex polytechnic university.

If both parents earn under 100k each & work you can get the 30 hours funding & also use tax free childcare.

@desiringonlychild most people can't save/live in their usual manner when their dc are young & haven't started school. However with 7k income & a low mortgage you can afford childcare & easily save.

I’m not disputing that the birth rate is falling, I was just making the point that the reasons governments have to come up with a “reasonable” number of children are not arbitrary or based on notions of ideal family sizes. They’re pretty utilitarian calculations based on economic factors.

@Desiringonlychild I'm not saying I don't believe you (you sound like you've done your sums according to your own financial situation), I'm just saying that I don't judge people for having two children whether they can afford it or not. I think choosing to have three or more children when you can't afford it is irresponsible though.

@ILuvQuarintinis seriously? All the drunk students who collapse and then need the NHS on Friday night are suffering from an illness? The NHS still helps them though. At least the additional children would be taxpayers.We should be grateful we aren't like Germany where people don't want to have children despite almost free childcare. Every child is a gift. I personally am not prepared to take care of more than 1 gift, i am grateful to the women who pick up the slack for me.

Aldiaisleofcrap is that only if you don't pay childcare for all 3? When I rang tax credits they told me I wouldn't be able to claim even if I pay childcare.

"Surely for the taxes we pay, we should support all families, irregardless of size."

Yes but those working and paying taxes and paying for their own children, end up paying other people to have as many children as they like and not work. Doesnt seem fair somehow.

@sotiredwe but i can't afford a 3 bed house in my neighbourhood either. Not saying its not #firstworldproblems. But like I think its my choice whether I have an only child, I don't see any problems with other women making their choice of family size. of course I hope that they did their calculations cos it can't be nice to have to go to the food bank to feed your kids. Or to see other families be able to enjoy themselves and buy their children nice things, and to have nothing . But denying them child benefit is just punishing the innocent 3rd child , 4th child, 5th child.

If you had said 3 children it wouldn’t have gone this way, it’s because you said 5 that’s loads of people are piling on.

@PumpkinP, yes because that's what I wanted to answer to.

As I said above, it made me wonder how someone with more children copes and what stretch that has on the system. I specifically said 5 children for a reason.

Im fed up of paying for other peoples kids.I have never been entitled to any t/c or UC.