To think the NHS is no longer fit for purpose

[alloutofducks]

I have just had a hospital consultation cancelled, following 6 months of extreme pain. I can apparently go back on the list, along with everyone else, in the Autumn. This is "because Covid", as the departmental secretary said on the phone.

The NHS can't cope with Covid. If it can cope with Covid itself, it won't be able to cope with the MH problems caused by lockdown. If it somehow miraculously copes with Covid and the resulting MH problems caused by lockdown, it certainly won't be able to cope with people in extreme pain for other reasons. Or people with long-term, life-limiting conditions.

The NHS was set up at a particular point in history where it worked as a model due to the make-up of the population (among other things).

There was none of the mawkish "our NHS" sentiment: it did its job, and did it reasonably well, on balance.

Now it seems that the increasing sentimentality about it is in direct proportion to its essential failure as a system.

We don't become tearful and pot-bangish about "our education system", for example. While we may sometimes feel like weeping with gratitude about the long-suffering teachers who have to put up with our DC on a daily basis, we expect the education system to get on with educating our children. Likewise, we expect the legal system (again: not "our" legal system) to uphold the law. And so on.

This is not a dig at anyone who works for the NHS (my sister and her partner do, for context). But AIBU to think the NHS simply doesn't work now and needs radically overhauling, preferably in a cross-party way?

The NHS has saved and extended the lives of many of family and friends. I can think of about 15 without trying. Regardless of their income level, or if they were paying any income tax. That's amazing.

I find the timing of this thread so disappointing. The government and NHS are aware of the extreme sacrifice to other patient services caused by Covid. I really wish that hadn't happened. But we know that patients were in hospital for non-Covid, picking it up and dying. So continuing business as usual was impossible due to the contagion, not just the NHS.
Now we have capacity and enough staff, why don't we give them a few days to create Covid-zero wards and start getting back to other patients? It's April, this became serious in March. Yes, you would have liked your surgery to go ahead. Would you have felt confident to go in if they'd admitted you two weeks ago?

OP - You talk about applauding NHS staff differently to education staff. Yes, everyone involved in schools deserve our thanks for working in an environment that can't cope with social distancing. They should be acknowledged for that. But let's be honest, it's a different challenge to working 12 hour shifts on a Covid ward in full PPE, or treating suspected patients without full PPE. Having more patients die faster than they've ever seen before. Dealing with bereaved relatives while trying to keep their own families free from infection. That's what the nation is grateful for.
Please don't create a NHS bashing thread (you said it isn't, but it definitely is) and dismantling our free service when we need it most.

@DianaT1969

Great post

Absolutely agree OP.

We need to look to France/Germany - their healthcare systems are far superior and work on a part insurance based system.

This "protect our NHS" crap is harmful.

Seriously- you're choosing now to slag off the NHS?

@floatygoat yes they have vastly superior systems. I agree with u there.

What @DianaT1969 said

OP has stated she is not bashing HCP's.

It's the system that is not fit for purpose now, not the staff.

It was implemented in a very different era with a vastly smaller population and much less advanced, expensive medical equipment.

You couldn't throw enough money at it, regardless of austerity. It needs an entire overhaul, but people start shrieking "protect our NHS" and it is never discussed in a realistic manner.

OnlyFoolsNMothers the shortage of ICU nurses is indeed a perfect example of NHS mismanagement - that is to say, the mismanagement of the NHS by this government. Did you think introducing full tuition fees for nursing students and axing nursing grants wouldn't have an effect? Did you think Brexit and the associated xenophobia wouldn't have an effect? Oh yes, the NHS has been mismanaged. By Westminster.

We need to look to France/Germany - their healthcare systems are far superior and work on a part insurance based system

Sure it’s nothing to do with the taxpayer paying twice the amount of tax towards the healthcare...

Why is there such a rash of NHS bashing threads all of a sudden? Yes, it’s not perfect. Yes, it needs a review. Yes, it needs more money. But now really isn’t the time to put the boot in.

I would love to see the bursary for nurses coming back but having been a supplier to the NHS for years the waste is shocking. The lack of ownership even worse. I dealt with Procurement who were terrible time wasters. The nurses and doctors on the front line in CV wards are literally putting their lives on the line. However not all nurses and doctors are angels. I saw some terrible, unprofessional behaviour when my DM was in hospital for a couple of weeks last year. Especially sadly amongst the nurses, the doctors were better but they were only at the bedside for a few minutes a day.

Basically we do need to have a cross party review on how we can make the NHS better. If that means some of us having to fund treatment then so be it.

You see I think people want to have more funding for the NHS. They just don’t have to pay the extra themselves.

Yes, France and Germany have good systems. Why the reluctance to have that discussion?

Of course it won’t be now but throwing money I fear will result in more waste.

If the only way the NHS has survived/is surviving covid is because all other non-covid care has been suspended, then it's not really "coping with" covid, is it?!

The point of the NHS is to provide all healthcare, not solely to treat covid patients. If it can't do the former anymore then it's failing all of us.

crispysausagerolls people in the UK expect Scandinavian standard services on US level taxes. And they think they are highly taxed!

Bathroom NHS procurement is indeed dreadful and in need of reform. I can't think of a single person, myself included, who thinks it works well. But again, it's all because of the introduction of 'the market' - people bid for NHS contracts, the NHS has to choose the cheapest and isn't allowed to go for the best in terms of value for money.

@steff13 cancer treatment is going ahead here as well. A friend has recently been diagnosed and is being treated. Another friend has long standing complications due to her cancer treatment and is still being treated. However a friend who ‘needs’ treatment isn’t being treated, strangely she’s the most vocal out of the three about how ridiculous lockdown is.

well said OnlyFoolsNMothers.

Floatygoat, you are wrong. End of. I worked in america for 13 years, and insurance based systems are not the answer - in fact, they cause hosts of problems, bankruptcy and misery for people who cant afford health care. And do we really want to live in a country where people cant afford to see a doctor when they are sick?

OP - building a system fit for the 21st century? Arent you just ignoring the facts - the NHS has been starved of funds, had random 'efficency savings' forced on it, been divided from the social care systems that it needs to work in partnership with which have them been cut to the bone, subject to increased demands and set about with rules about taking the cheapest contracts regardless of quality of care. If we want good health care we have to pay for it and having worked in an insurance based system, I can tell you that paying through taxes is the best option.

You see I think people want to have more funding for the NHS. They just don’t have to pay the extra themselves

I’m happy to pay more tax for it but only if it goes hand in hand with reform.

I worked with NHS procurement for over 30 years. It was always been shocking. Teams of people running cottage industries to justify their roles. No ownership, no decision making, endless meetings often attended by a cast of 1000 and then the next meeting with a new set of people.

I don’t know why people think it should be free regardless. It’s not the envy of the world. Health tourists like it because it’s free, they haven’t paid a penny into it. But yes, who wouldn’t like to access a free service?

No one who is questioning the nhs is saying they don’t want a free for all system, we aren’t knocking front line workers either- we are saying let’s improve it. Let’s question the issues it clearly has, let’s pay more tax and spend it more effectively. Let’s take lessons from better, efficient systems and keep the nhs going!

People need to grow up and stop crying about "bashing" to try and silence others whenever legitimate criticism or reflective questioning takes place. It is so tedious how frequently it is used on here to try and shut people up or shame them.

If you choose to join institutions with responsibilities to society then you need to be capable of engaging with the accountability process instead of reacting as if every debate and every concern is a personal criticism of you.

I think by co funding payment you might well take personal responsibility for some things that you might be doing to yourself.

Just a thought....

Do you know if you can’t tolerate the NHS then go private.

No, actually the NHS has to become better managed and has to make better use of its resources.

These threads tend to turn into a litany of anecdote @compassunreliable, that’s why “bashing” is used. Mature debate here is as rare as hens’ teeth.

pointythings the points you make are valid absolutely- (although Brexit is a null point- we havent left yet, plus you could also point out that mass uncontrolled immigration will have had an impact too). That aside you are right, Government after government have destroyed the nhs, from the labour years cutting beds, pumping the system with middle managers, the tories closing hospitals and endless under funding. But we cannot ignore the poor management within the trusts themselves. There’s a whole overhaul needed!

Don't worry. It'll be sold off to the Americans soon enough.