AIBU to get a bit fucked off at having to protect the NHS?

[Santaclauswhosthat]

This is a healthcare system I've paid into all my life. I don't think everyone who works in it is a hero and the vast majority of them aren't underpaid. It's ranked 16th in the world and has the worst cancer outcomes for any developed country. It's not very good. Nonetheless it's the only healthcare system open to me right now. But I can't access it. My operation had been cancelled and I can't get a consultant appointment. The GPs aren't seeing patients face to face. I've already had one tumour removed that was on the turn. I'm worried that I may have another. I have no way of finding out if this is the case. A family member has already died of covid 19 after being denied treatment for three days during which repeated calls to the ambulance service were made whereupon his mother was told she should only ring again if his lips turned blue. He is dead. Right now. The NHS didn't protect him. It isn't protecting me either. What is the point of the NHS, exactly? Most clinics are closed or running at half mast. GPs aren't seeing anyone. NHS staff get shopping hours and free food and fuck knows what else and we are all dying protecting them.

Yes doctor bashing is fine, don’t ever dare to bash a teacher though, you’ll totally get flamed!!!

@acquiescence teachers, supermarket staff and postmen aren’t getting a national standing ovation every Thursday at 8pm though

The UK has some of the worst cancer survival rates in the developed world. In a functioning system, you find a lump, you make an appointment with a specialist doctor, ultrasound, mammogram, biopsy, diagnosis? Three weeks. In the UK, how long does it take to even see a doctor?

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/uk-cancer-survival-rates-bottom-world-league-table-a9101916.html

For all those who blame the Tory Government, when ds's arm was left too long in a temporary cast meaning bones moved resulting in an op two weeks later it was 2002 and there was a labour government. We didn't expect to be admitted or to stay overnight. I didn't expect a nurse to shout at me because I was awake and then to slam a fan down next to me when I said it was too hot to sleep. Neither when my period started in the night and I asked if any of the five women at the nursing station might be able to help me out did I expect to be told to go and find maternity because they might have a pad.

All around the department were notices informing parents where they could send a donation for the children's ward.

It irks that it is always the Tories who are blamed when far too many of the heroes have a fundamental attitude problem vis a vis service - you know the S in NHS.

I think you are directing your anger in the wrong direction, guidelines for ambulance workers are given by management, the decision was not made by the dispatcher on the phone. I have an acquaintance who also was not admitted as her oxygen saturation levels were marginally above 80% (and she was told that 80% is the threshold for admission, because below that organ failure may happen). She ended up spending two weeks in the ICU, made it through, but it was touch and go. Does not really make sense in the context of Nightingale Hospitals running at low capacity.
Having said that, I am always puzzled by the almost-religious attitude of British people towards the NHS. It was probably really groundbreaking during the times it was started, but since then many countries have developed more effective (both outcome and cost - wise) healthcare solutions.

@Doggodogington

Yes doctor bashing is fine, don’t ever dare to bash a teacher though, you’ll totally get flamed!!!

Why post such a PA, divisive sentiment?

It annoys me when there is a HUGE thread saying nhs IS doing fine and there are loads of spare beds and the nhs is not up to capacity etc which is amazing news, then you get stories like this of patients being denied care and dying for one reason or another.
Something somewhere doesn’t add up.

I am with you OP! X

I’m sorry

Yanbu to feel angry

'The UK has some of the worst cancer survival rates in the developed world. In a functioning system, you find a lump, you make an appointment with a specialist doctor, ultrasound, mammogram, biopsy, diagnosis? Three weeks.'

Yes. I've posted this somewhere else recently, but I found a lump recently, arranged (directly) an appointment with the relevant specialist which I had within five days of finding the lump, and she did the ultrasound (and gave me the all-clear malignancy-wise) there and then. Under a European statutory insurance system. Which, yes, I pay for in an income-dependent premium and highish taxes. But which is a world away from the US system. And if I'd been poor I'd have been insured by the state and had exactly the same process.

My issue is even when we didn’t have Covid as an excuse to be crap the cancer care Dp received was a joke.

6 months of going to the doctors with classic cancer symptoms.
Even asking did he have bowel cancer because his father had died from it.

Being told not to frighten himself and get off Dr Google.

All he got was various laxative treatments when the cancer had grown so much that it completely blocked his colon.
Finally having to be helped into A&E where he was diagnosed because by that stage he found walking difficult

Then having to pay to save his life as the NHS despite him paying into it for the previous 40 years refused to treat him to anything that might help

The most they will help him with is end of life care. They seem quite big on that.

Now he needs a scan to see what is happening. Because we don’t have the money to get the scan we are at the mercy of the NHS and with Covid and also the fact he should be dead by now I don’t think even if he survives till after this is over he won’t be a top priority. We have had to fight to get anything done through the NHS.

It might as well be America as far as we are concerned.

Neither Dp or myself when we have got really ill or something has gone badly wrong the NHS has let us down and piddled about for years with the wrong treatments because they won’t pay for proper diagnostic tests and ended up going private to get a proper diagnosis and treatment.

I walked around in agony for 7 years with a slipped disc. Diagnosed privately by MRI

The NHS consultant didn’t even look at me. (I don’t mean examine me. I mean actually look at me. Note my hair colour, what clothes I was wearing etc)
I asked about an MRI but was told that was too expensive (I paid £300)

Compare the £300 and 3 months of treatment I paid for (Fortunately I didn’t need surgery)

To being diagnosed with needing a hip replacement (I don’t) and I wouldn’t get one till I was 60 and seeing a consultant 28 times and 182 physio appointments. How much wasted money did that cost in the end.
I was shouted at when the physio wasn’t relieving the pain as apparently the idea that something else might be wrong just wasn’t a possibility

Everything is done on the cheap and with an eye on budget but in the end costs so much more not just in financial costs to the NHS but in people being off sick (7 years in my case) and the emotional and physical pain people are left in without the correct treatment and the deaths because a correct diagnosis is not forthcoming until patients are on their death bed

Dontdisturbme

I've lived in HK, Singapore, Spain and Greece. OK, so I will concede that I do not know that much about the Greek healthcare system as I was a lot younger and never used it, but the other 3 I can say are much better IMO than what we get here and I have used them quite a lot. In both HK and Singapore I went through fertility treatment, prenatal, birth and post natal services. I've used paediatric services. I had an issue with pregnancy no.2 and I was referred to the Head of Foetal Medicine in Singapore and he saved my baby's life. I've had 2 MRI's, tests for cancer, physio and loads of same day GP appointments. I've used their A&E a few times.

In contrast my other had bad stomach ache for 2 weeks. Our GP said she had colitis. 2 weeks later she was rushed to hospital on a Good Friday. No one really took any notice of her till the following Tuesday when she was rushed to theatre as she was vomitting up brown gloop and my mother died on the operating table of toxic shock.

So, perhaps I am a bit biased

my mother, not other.

Sometimes I do think that the "hero" worship of nhs staff is a bit much (I'm "nhs staff" and getting a bit embarrassed by the clapping).

However, part of shutting down the parts of the NHS is not just about protecting the NHS and managing capacity in the surge / peak of COVID19. Its about protecting the most vulnerable patients. As a PP pointed out, health care workers are probably more likely to be exposed and carry the virus, even if asymptomatic. If you're already vulnerable, we are weighing up the risk of the outcomes of you not getting routine care for a few weeks vs the outcome if you get Covid19 from an asymptomatic healthcare worker.

As far as I know, in my local area, chemo & cancer related surgeries are still going ahead. Essential care is going on, but more routine care is balanced up from the risk of not having the care vs the risk of covid19 exposure.

Plus remember, that healthcare staff are going to work every day, in PPE which isn't even up to WHO standard, effectively putting themselves and their families at risk. We'd all rather be on lockdown, only leaving the house to get a weekly shop.

I am truly sorry about your situation and can see where you are coming from, I think I'd be exactly the same if I was grieving.

Very appropriate words from the preface of Henry Marsh's book 'do no harm', a top brain surgeon

'if we are I'll in hospital, fearing for our life, awaiting terrifying surgery, we have to trust the doctor's treating us -at least , life is very difficult if we don't. It is not surprising that we invest doctors with superhuman qualities as a way of overcoming our fears. If the operation succeeds, the surgeon is a hero, but if it fails, he is the villain.

The reality, of course, is entirely different. Doctors are human, just like the rest of us. Much of what happens in hospitals is a matter of luck, both good and bad. Success and failure are often out of the doctor's control'

However, we hate the idea that our lives are in the hands of fate that we have no control over. It is scary so we blame those who take the risk with our life. It doesn't make it right.

I remember feeling really angry with the NHS for a long time after my mum took her own life. There were a number of personal failings of GPs and mental health services.

I now understand the problem was caused by continuous underfunding of the NHS but you are not unreasonable to feel angry. It's part of the grieving process.

CatteStreet

What do you mean by Under a European statutory insurance system

What you describe I don’t think is the NHS. It takes more than 5 days to get a GP appointment

And you don’t arrange an appointment directly with the consultant

I think we need to look at other European countries and see how they fund health and care services and evaluate what they actually deliver. Both need evaluation. It’s not right to just throw money at something without evaluating what you are getting for the money. It needs to change though because we have the fifth biggest employer in the world and a service costing £140 billion a year. The younger generation will struggle with high taxes for years and years as a result of this.

On a separate note, Public Health England staff racked up 5 million air miles in the last year. We spend a lot of money on travel abroad apparently and giving advice to others. Is this what we should be doing?

I mean my experience was under a European statutory insurance system (not the NHS. I don't live in the UK).

news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-nhs-fears-people-are-not-seeking-urgent-care-as-a-e-visits-fall-by-50-11978513

Part of the system where I am is that things aren't so centralised in hospitals. Most specialists work in their own practices. For some things you need a referral from a GP, but if you are already a patient at the specialist you can access them directly. Everyone with asthma or allergies, for example, has a pneumologist. All women have a gynae and a lot of men have a urologist. And with children you don't see a GP, but a paediatrician (for everything, vaccinations, check-ups, etc).

. In both HK and Singapore I went through fertility treatment, prenatal, birth and post natal services. I've used paediatric services. I had an issue with pregnancy no.2 and I was referred to the Head of Foetal Medicine in Singapore and he saved my baby's life. I've had 2 MRI's, tests for cancer, physio and loads of same day GP appointments. I've used their A&E a few times
So probably use less than 5% of the healthcare system, but it makes you an expert to decide that the whole healthcare is so much better.

It's cost effectiveness of the entire system that determines its worth.

Agree with you op. The NHS is a religion for some people, it’s really weird, they just can’t be objective about it. The staff are just like people in any job, some good, some bad. One thing this crisis should do is show the need for complete change.

My brother and his family live in Germany and even before this he said one of the reasons he wouldn’t move back to the U.K. is how bad the NHS is compared to the German system.

@CatteStreet

Exactly. I went from finding a lump, to ultrasound, mammogram, biopsy, diagnosis within three weeks. The lump was benign. Ultrasound as a diagnostic tool is used frequently. There is a reason cancer survival rates are so bleak in the UK. Swift diagnosis using advanced technology is key.

@dontdisturbmenow Not everyone who gets cancer has abused their body. I run, am slim, don't drink a great deal and eat healthily.

I got diagnosed with cancer last month.

I'm very lucky that my treatment of radio and chemotherapy is starting tomorrow.

All my scans went ahead very quickly. I've not waited more than 7 days for any test result or scan.

I've never really needed the NHS before. Didn't have a GP for many years. I used to pay and use a private one.

However I need them now and despite covid-19, they are still there for me. For this I am grateful.