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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think policing is pretty poor in this country?

427 replies

EasyPleasey · 13/04/2020 09:10

I'm sure there are lots of excellent and well meaning individual police officers. However, my dealings with them in the past decade have been:

  1. Reported a sexual assault. CCTV available, public area. Case closed not investigated.

  2. Reported a burglary. Very likely suspect told to them, they didnt investigate, they didnt have time, case closed.

  3. Spent ages writing to them about suspected fraud on a now deceased person. Never followed up by police.

  4. Reported a fraudulent car sale/theft complete with names and addresses, nothing done.

  5. Reported regular criminal damage to private property, some teenagers smashing outdoor lights and garden furniture in my road, £1000s of damage. Police said it's worse in other areas and did nothing.

But now I see police loitering round Tesco enforcing that one puts 'non essential' socks in their trolley, harassing people for using their front garden, I think where did they find all this time? Maybe a lot actually enjoy having the power to order people around, but solving crimes isnt a passion for many of them?

OP posts:
SlurplePurple · 13/04/2020 13:05

I’ve never been a victim of crime So maybe I’m on the wrong side of this.
I also have family within the police force and can honestly say I know they do nothing less than their best every single shift.
They are being shuffled around and losing rest days right now to try and up their numbers.
They struggle with a lot of domestic violence and mental health emergencies on top of regular crimes and that’s on a normal week without a worldwide pandemic.
My family member is not enjoying the current situation at work and neither are any of their colleagues.
It’s a strange and different kind of policing to what they are used to. If they go hard they get slated, if they tread gently, they get slated. They try to strike a balance and are still slated.
I know I worry about their safety every time they are on shift. Imagine trying to defend yourself alone with just a can of pepper spray and a short stick? Imagine never knowing if the call you’re answering is going to be your last? Imagine leaving your family every day to help keep everyone safe and getting nothing but stick for it?
Imagine coming home after 14 hours at work, trying your absolute best, being calm and polite while being screamed at and then reading this thread?
I hope no serving officer finds this thread and thinks they are so hated and under valued.
Like any profession there are good and bad people in it. But no one joins the police for the money and contrary to belief on mumsnet, I know of none who joined for the status/power either.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 13/04/2020 13:20

Unfortunately, we seem to notice those who are terrible at their jobs more

Exactly - because positive news doesn't make such a good headline

I remember the idiot officer who attended a Freedom Programme session and whose only response to harrowing accounts was "It's getting better because we've got this new form ..." but I also remember the countless acts of kindness from so many, often in their own time and on their own initiative

Some would also do well to look into the CPS's role and consider that what might seem an open and shut case to any of us isn't necessarily so. Certainly they make mistakes, but the "realistic prospect of conviction" they need just isn't always there - no, not even with rape

Instead of slating all police, why not just offer them a cuppa and a few appreciative words if there's the chance to? It means so very much to the decent ones, and for the few bad apples ... well, who knows if it might not turn the occasional one around?

TomHardysCBBC · 13/04/2020 13:23

Where did I say I agreed with the meme? @Disgustingly Nowhere. I said I shared it as clearly lots of people are sharing the sentiments of this thread.

Which is worthy of discussion.

I have spent 20 years in MH in prisons, secure units and probation teams with high risk serious offenders. I won't bore you with the things i've seen or had happen to me that led me to have PTSD.

Having known and being friends with some great Police and probation officers doesn't mean I have ANYTHING like the confidence I should have in advising people to report rape or DV because i've seen how destructive it is to do that and then be treated like shit by the Police or to see it not go anywhere after you've gone through humiliating and painful interviews and examinations (sometimes the fault of the CPS rather than the Police).

And if we want to go further, it doesn't mean I haven't known people suffer harassment by the Police, physical abuse (or even die) as a result of treatment in custody and my career be threatened for not wanting to look the other way.

There are many things that can be criticised and the whole point of a democracy is that we are free to do that. And should.

Ignoring the posts on this thread where people having been massively failed by the Police while saying 'they have a really tough job, bet you lot couldn't do it' is just ridiculous.

canigooutyet · 13/04/2020 13:27

There still is and always have been bent cops on the force. And it’s easy to see why. Some make laws up as they go along.

Some of their “arrests” have been horrific including had the person not been wearing a uniform they would have been arrested, and depending on their job sacked. Little thing called gross misconduct.

Got a uniform on, oh it’s ok. No harm done. Sorry and all that. Got a bit confused about the laws of the country.

Then there’s the long standing over decades, still the issue of racial profiling. A lot of that again, without the uniform, arrested and gross misconduct.

We try and talk about it and people come along to try and silence us. And when the bent ones do want to talk they want it behind closed doors.

Some claim to be bias yet fail to disclose public information, instead lets talk in private. All whilst insulting and trying to close the conversation down.

No harm done when someone is wrongly arrested. But feelings hurt from another copper in a different force. How is that possible if no harm was done?

Until the police what they have been saying for as long as I can remember - zero tolerance - and follow through I won’t respect them.

How can I respect a force that we are supposed to look up. Who we are supposed to protect us. Supposed to be role models to young people. When they take zero action on their own officers. Sorry isn’t enough.

If someone from NHS or Education behaves like some of these racist thugs, they would have been sacked.

If those thugs can police us, then why am I unable to police them when it comes time to keeping their jobs?

Look at the guy not long ago and his treatment during that wrongful arrest. That time he got caught, wonder how many complaints have already been made against that officer. But it’s ok cos you know he’s awfully sorry and got a bit confused about the social distancing rules.

Micah · 13/04/2020 13:28

It's like me coming on here and exclaiming how easy teachers have it when I've no experience of being a teacher. Completely unfounded and a ridiculously uneducated assumption about a profession I've no experience of working in

Yep. I had a bully of a teacher more than once who reduced me to tears and made me want to disappear.

So therefore all teachers are narcissistic bullies who only join up for the power they have over kids and the fun of making them cry over trivial shit.

I’ve known nurses, and dr’s, who carry out unnecessary procedures to “teach them a lesson” Stomach pumps for alcohol/drugs, stitches without anaesthesia for self harm. Fobbing off with tablets or telling people they have nothing to be depressed about...
Even IT is the biggest waste of space paid shitloads for doing nothing...

Yet I don’t see the NHS being villified as all staff being like that..

HopefullyAnonymous · 13/04/2020 13:41

Just one last comment on under-funding before I bow out, having found many of the comments quite upsetting.

Our force finally issued us with our Covid PPE around ten days ago. One single use face mask per officer. I used mine on the first day, as loads of our “customers” are now spitting/coughing at officers and bloody everyone is claiming to have the virus.

I’ve had to explain my rationale for using my only mask to senior officers. I can’t get another mask as they only had the funding for one mask per officer. I’ll still be out there doing whatever is needed/asked. I love my job and on those occasions where you know you’ve made a difference it’s the best job in the world.

But threads like these make me realise that the vast majority of my colleagues are, like me, swimming against the tide and will be vilified no matter what. It’s no wonder we are leaving in droves.

PicsInRed · 13/04/2020 13:43

They struggle with a lot of domestic violence and mental health emergencies on top of regular crimes

Last I looked, domestic violence was a "regular crime".

I think this about sums it up, really. Many see domestic violence as one of those "tacked on" duties, not really their job, not a "real crime", but they'll have a wee look if they have time which they seldom do.

Domestic violence is violence. Consent to sex and/or a relationship and/or having a child together is neither consent to all sex, nor consent to a lifetime of violence, harassment and abuse.

TomHardysCBBC · 13/04/2020 13:43

That's not what's happening on this thread though.

The overwhelming majority are saying 'not all Police are like that' but relating their experiences where they've been massively failed and being jumped on for saying ALL Police are like that when that's not what they said at all.

DianaT1969 · 13/04/2020 13:49

I don't think the policing is poor in this country, but then I have lived in 6 other countries and have something to compare them to.
I am amused to see so many anti-establishment threads popping up on MN lately. The same kind seen on social media in the run up to the Brexit referendum. They were investigated and confirmed to have come from one location in Russia. Millions of tweets, FB posts and thread comments just like this one.

Google it if you're interested. It might make MNers more sceptical about the aims of some OPs.
I go to a couple of different supermarkets in central London and haven't seen a single police officer at one. I don't see them near supermarkets on my exercise walk either.
MNers are the first to suggest a poster experiencing domestic abuse calls the police. So I'd suggest they are currently more tied up with DV cases.

PicsInRed · 13/04/2020 13:57

They were investigated and confirmed to have come from one location in Russia.

Christ sake, we're opinionated women, not cossacks.

CatOnLaptop · 13/04/2020 14:01

I find these sorts of threads really disheartening, but the fact remains that these are beliefs held by many. Some will have their own less-than-genuine agenda for posting negative comments but sadly many are posting from personal experience. I think the police ignore that at our own peril. We police by consent in this country and that means transparency and accountability.

I don't speak for all officers or all forces but I hope I can answer a few recurring themes that have popped up - from my own perspective - in a way that might help people understand why the police behave in certain ways. It might reassure some of you even if you still disagree with the approach.

Money. Policing has suffered huge funding cuts. Now there's no denying money was wasted and working practices could have been improved, but truth is that we're now in a situation where there is only so much you can do when you have 15 frontline officers (on a good day) covering a population of 40-50,000 people and on average 40 calls to police to answer at any given time. So the police prioritised. Most forces prioritised by threat/harm/risk, and by this they mean of physical harm to life or limb. So any shop theft, fraud, car broken into etc immediately goes to the bottom of the list compared to an assault. 'Property second to people' is the reasoning. It means that by the time those 'less dangerous' crimes are picked up (often by secondary, desk-based staff - if at all) lines of enquiry are lost so they get closed without any satisfactory outcome. We think it's crap for victims too.

Plugging the gap for other services. Quite often mental health accounts for 40% of what my team do. Chronic underfunding in the NHS means MH services are skinned to the bone and then some. Faced with 18-month waiting lists, inaccessible staff and an emergency crisis team that is so understaffed you might be told to ring back later, desperate and vulnerable people ring police threatening to kill themselves. Often social workers call us saying they're worried about someone too, but didn't have the resources to check on them and are now going off duty so can we fit it in please. Then hospitals themselves call us because the mentally unwell patient (who needs less urgent care than the bloke with a badly broken arm) has got so fed up of waiting to see a MH nurse he's left and they think he might kill himself. We also get missing people calls from mental health wards whose staff/patient ratio is such that one of their suicide risks has escaped and they need our help to find them. Under T/H/R these are prioritised over someone's car being broken into. When we attend these jobs it will likely tie us up all shift, as we have to make sure these people are safe.

Evidence - sadly, being told 'so-and-so down the road said it was x who did it' cannot be used as evidence unless that person is willing to provide a statement which can be used in a court of law. The burden of proof and evidential threshold is incredibly high (particularly when it comes to the ID of people) and while there are good solid reasons for it, yes it definitely works in the criminals' favour. We find it frustrating too.

Charging decisions. Police can only charge basic crimes (or mid-level crimes where the offender admits it or we have overwhelming evidence). The rest are decided by the CPS. Incidentally, the CPS make the final decision for all domestics and hate crimes, unless there is such a fundamental lack of evidence then an Inspector might make the decision not to proceed to the CPS. This has to be fully recorded for audit purposes.

Rapes. Shocking and disappointing conviction rates. The rules on disclosure has a huge amount to do with this. Individual police officers far less so. While it's my own personal opinion, I think some thought as to whether an adversarial court approach is the best approach for a crime in which there are rarely witnesses or independent evidence and which often comes down to consent is in order.

Domestics. I joined to tackle these. Like a great many officers I see my role as having a duty to stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves. I have a like-minded Inspector. We've had many successes, including with victims who have previously declined to engage with police. Perhaps because of our team ethic we're not representative, but my force - like most - has a positive action policy (ie you cannot attend and just walk away without doing anything, you must do something) and it's generally robustly enforced. There are individual failings of course, mostly because officers are human and get it wrong. I am proud to say that the only cases I've ever known of offficers abusing their positions have resulted in those officers being forced out of the organisation.

All that said, as an organisation I think the police have a lot to learn about domestics. Officers are generally independent, practical people who can struggle to comprehend the complex dynamics in abusive relationships. Too many of us genuinely don't understand why victims stay. We need to have far more training around victim psychology to break down the barriers preventing victims from trusting us. But likewise, society needs to step up. I can't promise a victim that if she leaves her abuser she'll get a house in a nice area with good schools and decent benefits while she finds her feet and I'll make her abuser go to prison. I can't even promise her a space in a refuge these days. She may have to wait weeks for UC. And even if she supports a prosecution and provides a statement (which will totally upend her life), the CPS might well choose no further action if there are no visible injuries or other supporting evidence. We can now use Domestic Violence Protection Orders, but they still have to meet a court threshold and if the perpetrator breaches them, chances are he's looking at a £50 fine only. I understand why many victims have little faith in the criminal justice system or society in general and so choose to stay. I, and my colleagues, will still do our best, as I believe will most officers, but many of these factors are outside our control.

And while doing all the above, most of my team will have about 8 crimes to investigate as well as answering 999 calls. This is why we're so slow.

At the moment public order crimes have dropped massively. There are no night-time-economy crimes to deal with. My force are screening out all but the most serious crimes (ie THR) from frontline officers to ensure they can undertake patrols to support lockdown. (A 999 domestic will still take precedence over these.) That's why there suddenly seem to be more officers available. My firce is gery, very clear that we are doing thus through engagement, working with people rather than against them wherever possible. This comes at a price though, particularly for vulnerable victims of crimes taking place behind closed doors who won't call us themselves and who won't see anyone else now who might report on their behalf.

Meanwhile, my team is just trying to the best we can in unprecedented times. We don't know who us infected and who isn't. Some of our more 'difficult customers' deliberately cough over us. Other people call us 'useless pigs' yet at the same time want us to arrest their neighbours for havung a BBQ (we wouldn't do this).

No one joins the police to be popular and anyone who can't take the criticism is in the wrong job. But we are still people (some good, a few bad, the majority ordinary) in the same society as the rest of you. We want to get this right just as much as everyone else.

Disgustingly · 13/04/2020 14:08

Thank you CatOnLaptop

PicsInRed · 13/04/2020 14:11

CatOnLaptop

I can appreciate what you're saying, and you come across as a genuine, reasonable person and police officer. I wouldnt argue that you likely do your very best, with what you have, every shift.

But I still don't understand.
Police can "have a word" based on an unstatemented report, give "advice" where a crime isn't actually being committed, the legislation isn't actually breached (though the spirit of it may be) - for coronavirus lockdown.

So they can do it. They can, and they do.

So why not for DV?
Why not for women?

DianaT1969 · 13/04/2020 14:12

@picsinred - Christ sakes if you don't know that Russia has exploited social media with timely anti-establishment posts and learn to take them with a pinch of caution, then Christ sakes you need to read a bit more widely. No tin foil or Cossack hat here, but can't be arsed to give links to Guardian and Newsweek articles that were well publicised at the time.

Alsohuman · 13/04/2020 14:14

I go to a couple of different supermarkets in central London and haven't seen a single police officer at one. I don't see them near supermarkets on my exercise walk either

Whereas they photographed themselves outside Tescos and tweeted it where I live and two of them were sauntering round the local park when I walked the dog on Saturday evening. Clearly everywhere isn’t the same. Quelle surprise.

canigooutyet · 13/04/2020 14:15

And is it true that local forces can deal with DV as they deem acceptable?

DianaT1969 · 13/04/2020 14:15

@picsinred - Christ sakes you inspired me to post a link to a Guardian article on Russia's social media posts meddling with the US election.
www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/14/russia-us-politics-social-media-facebook
Lots more on Brexit.

canigooutyet · 13/04/2020 14:16

I go to a couple of different supermarkets in central London and haven't seen a single police officer at one. I don't see them near supermarkets on my exercise walk either

How nice for you.
Suppose everyone else is talking complete bollocks

PicsInRed · 13/04/2020 14:21

The coronavirus lockdown has just laid bare the fact that they can deal robustly with something if they want to. The will just needs to be there.

With DV, it seems, the will isn't there.

And to answer the question as to why women stay, it's partly due to threats to take the children. The courts favour 50/50 and you can't protect the kids if you aren't there. So you stay. Also, if you are with him, you are his, he'll hurt you, but maybe not kill you. If you leave him, there is the fear that he'll kill you so no one else can have you. Also, when you are with these guys, you know where they are, whether they're in a good mood or a bad mood. You can try to influence it to improve your own safety and that of the children. When you aren't with them...you don't know what they're planning, what mood theyre in, when they'll be by. If the kids are ok. It's terrifing not knowing if, when, how.

Just two police officers going to the exh house and telling him to knock it off could make all the difference to my life and my child's life. Exh cares about appearances.

The days when my child is with the father are terrible. The stories he come back with. Sometimes he sobs and sobs and sobs. It's been through family court. There's nothing to be done.

PicsInRed · 13/04/2020 14:23

DianaT1969

Of course I know.
That doesn't mean that fed up women on mumsnet are flaming Russians. We're just fed up women on mumsnet.

TomHardysCBBC · 13/04/2020 14:26

I think it's the discrepancy that people are struggling with.

In my earlier example a neighbour (and his partner) are violent convicted drug dealers with one currently on probation as released from prison 3 mths ago and one serving a community order (for growing drugs in the property).

Another neighbour called 101 to report them breaking lockdown 'rules', initially told to not call 101 but fill out the online form. She persisted to say it wasn't just that they were 'breaking lockdown' by having people in and out of the house all day and most of the night, it was the fact this was happening because they're still dealing drugs.

And they were told the information about them dealing drugs couldn't be acted on as was just anonymous 'intelligence' but if they had 2 reports within 30 minutes of the last breach of lockdown, they could dispatch a patrol to see if they were breaking lockdown rules.

Difficult to do if using the online form as very likely it won't be seen till more than 30 mins after the incident has passed. And difficult for most members of the public to understand that an anonymous report of drug dealing can't be acted on, but one for breaking 'lockdown rules' can.

CatOnLaptop · 13/04/2020 14:31

picsinred thank you for your kind comments.

Re: words of advice, this is very context driven. Some crimes are victim led. E.g if you get smacked in the face by your former friend down the pub but don't want anything other than a stern telling off for your friend, police will give words of advice. Same with a shopkeeper wanting a teenaged shoplifter not to get a criminal record but a warning. This applies to many crimes but NOT domestics.

Police can (and are expected to) pursue crimes of domestic abuse even without victim support - where the evidence exists to do so. Words of advice should happen (in my force anyway) only for cases where there are no offences established (i.e. a verbal argument without any elements of coercive control).

However, we have to be very careful with words of advice. Either we think we have evidence, in which case we should be investigating. Or we don't, in which case we shouldn't be treating someone as if they are guilty of a crime. Sometimes words of advice can be given in a way that is designed to advise someone of the potential future risk of their behaviour without any current wrongdoing being implied. This is exceptionally difficult to deliver well though.

wouldyouadamandeveit · 13/04/2020 14:36

FFS. Don't blame the Police, blame Government. The police can only do so much, as flippant as that sounds. My DBro's force is so strapped for cash and frontline officers, they are literally having to pick, out of calls made to 999, which ones to fucking attend, imagine being faced with that???

DianaT1969 · 13/04/2020 14:38

@cannigooutyet - yes it's lovely for me, thanks. No police in my inner city multi-cultural area patrolling the homeware aisles of Sainsbury's or Iceland. Clearly the OP lives in a crime-ridden microcosm, as she has had 5 recent encounters with crime, whereas I haven't had any. I thank my lucky stars every day.

CatOnLaptop · 13/04/2020 14:40

Regarding the political will I completely agree. But this needs to be top-down led, and by the government not just police.

If government doesn't care enough to support DA victims, you're sadly never going to achieve a police force that truly understands it and tackles it, no matter how many people like me are a part. I became homeless with children when my ex tried to kill me. I DO get it. I still can't promise a victim that it will all work out, even with my best ever effort, because so much of it is outside my control. Sad

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