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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think policing is pretty poor in this country?

427 replies

EasyPleasey · 13/04/2020 09:10

I'm sure there are lots of excellent and well meaning individual police officers. However, my dealings with them in the past decade have been:

  1. Reported a sexual assault. CCTV available, public area. Case closed not investigated.

  2. Reported a burglary. Very likely suspect told to them, they didnt investigate, they didnt have time, case closed.

  3. Spent ages writing to them about suspected fraud on a now deceased person. Never followed up by police.

  4. Reported a fraudulent car sale/theft complete with names and addresses, nothing done.

  5. Reported regular criminal damage to private property, some teenagers smashing outdoor lights and garden furniture in my road, £1000s of damage. Police said it's worse in other areas and did nothing.

But now I see police loitering round Tesco enforcing that one puts 'non essential' socks in their trolley, harassing people for using their front garden, I think where did they find all this time? Maybe a lot actually enjoy having the power to order people around, but solving crimes isnt a passion for many of them?

OP posts:
GlummyMcGlummerson · 13/04/2020 17:53

I give up trying to explain things. The police don't know your friend or her DH from Adam but somehow they should guess/ imagine/ make up whether she provoked him or not. They should absolutely assume that she is telling the truth but he isn't ?? Why? ??* ?She just needs to answer and blooming obviously he can take his DD on a jaunt - show me the rules that says a dad can't take his DF for a run*

Isn't the police policy "we believe you"?!

How about these reasons:

1 in 4 women are victims of DV - the stats should guide them into what is common and the result of our patriarchal/violent culture

Maybe they could treat it in the same way they'd treat an elderley lady who said she was mugged. How far does she have to go to prove she was telling the truth? Would they say she provoked him?

They could also use the supposed training they have around DV to see that violent men aren't scary looking bruisers with tattoos. They are charming men who can turn on the act when they want, and the police should know better than to fall for it hook line and sinker.

They could also use that training to make a sound judgement about the situation. In my exBIL's case, he said "I didn't kick her, my daughter was in my arms and I used my foot to move her out the way" (he bragged about this since).
Now tell me what kind of human being thinks "yep, that's what must have happened" and be on their way?

There is a cultural problem in the way British police treat female victims of violence, domestic and sexual. That's not an assumption - it's a fact based on information from rape.org, women's aid, and the countless complaints to the IPCC and subsequent enquiries.

But yeah god bless the bloke who kept his job who think he still did the right thing that directly led to a girl's murder

ProfessorSlocombe · 13/04/2020 17:55

1 in 4 women are victims of DV - the stats should guide them into what is common and the result of our patriarchal/violent culture

Some might say the only time the police are interested in stats is when it supports a policy of racial profiling.

TomHardysCBBC · 13/04/2020 17:56

@Neron. If you read the thread you'd realise that many people will NOT call the Police when needed due to bad experiences.

Lots of us DO know how hard it is to be a Police Officer. That does not detract from the often woeful response that Police Forces often ADMIT is happening when calling for more funding. Which they need 100%.

It's not an attack on individual officers; or being a 'Police expert' it's an open discussion on the force as a whole which started with a genuine enquiry about how the Police seem to fail a lot of victims of serious crime but in CV are pursuing CV related 'breaches' often without understanding the law and harassing members of the public.

It's a valid enquiry to ask why that is happening and why there is such a discrepancy.

GlummyMcGlummerson · 13/04/2020 17:56

To answer a PP - if I was raped or assaulted by a man, no o probably wouldn't report it. I wouldn't want to spend the next year being probed, blamed and out through the ringer for the 99% chance of fuck all happening

ProfessorSlocombe · 13/04/2020 17:57

There is a cultural problem in the way British police treat female victims of violence, domestic and sexual.

Further complicated by a complicated relationship with ethnicity ...

GlummyMcGlummerson · 13/04/2020 17:58

@ProfessorSlocombe - quite!

Puzzledandpissedoff · 13/04/2020 18:09

If you read the reports into Rotherham you will find that many an 'average' copper turned a blind eye to what was going on and dismissed the victims and their families reporting the abuse out of hand

Quite right, but it's the reasons behind this which concern me in light of what can very easily happen to a PCs career if members of any protected group raise a complaint

No excuse for any bandying around of insults, though; that's probably down to the few bad apples which any job attracts and which they'd do well to get rid of

Neron · 13/04/2020 18:11

@TomHardysCBBC I have read the thread, and what people say about not calling the police and what they'll actually do if they needed them is to be seen. It's all well and good to say what you're not going to do unless you're in that situation.

Why, on these types of discussion do people not want to discuss the CPS failings, or how the public abuse the service - you're experience I'm sure would have shown how many time wasters there are (a bit like the empty A&E right now). I have never been in the police, and I have had good and bad experiences but I wouldn't tarnish a whole service. It's a bit like me saying all doctors are shit because they've failed me and members of my family which has resulted in unnecessary deaths.

GlummyMcGlummerson · 13/04/2020 18:14

The CPS has its faults but they rely on accurate evidence and information to be passed onto them by police officers. Look into Poppi Worthington's case - (warning it's grim) an 11 month old who died after being anally raped, in one of those most deprived places in the country. We all know who raped her but the police completely bungled the evidence to a point there's never been a charge. That should never have happened!!

PicsInRed · 13/04/2020 18:15

Would I call the police?
Sigh. I don't know. Maybe.

Maybe, if I was burgled and needed a crime number to make an insurance claim? Maybe.

If I was raped? I would never make a statement. I know that I would have my phone confiscated and my social media and entire life raked through in order to try to somehow make it my fault. My underwear would be confiscated and held up in court to prove that I'm a slut. I would be interviewed, reinterviewed, rereinterviewed until my trauma was magnified to an enormous degree and the PTSD wasn't just from the rape, but from the "support" I'd received afterwards. I would be aggressively questioned in court, ripped to pieces and eviscerated. It it even got to court. Which it probably wouldn't. He probably wouldnt even be arrested. Or questioned. Or even spoken to. Given "advice".

In the unbelievable event it made it to court, in all likelihood he would be found Not Guilty. His friends and supporters would consider him to be my victim. Many people would side eye me - "did that really happen?', "did she falsely accuse him of rape"?

Would I report DV again?
No. No point.

canigooutyet · 13/04/2020 18:17

@ProfessorSlocombe
Absolutely bang on.

Although someone will come along and say yea but but but

CatOnLaptop · 13/04/2020 18:17

Glummy that's a horrible situation. I'm glad to hear your ex- BIL's GF is now doing well. I'm not going to make excuses for the officers because I wasn't there and don't have all the facts, but it sounds like they didnt explain themselves well at the very least. I'd be furious if any of my team asked someone what they did to provoke the perpetrator. Sad Angry

In some cases victims will provoke perpetrators as a means of exercising control over when and how the violence is directed at them as it can keep them safer. However, exploring that has to be done sensitively and without victim blaming.
It's not appropriate when initially responding to a 999. Certainly, asking questions of a victim/witness in front of the perpetrator should NOT happen. I'm sad your family member was let down.
As an aside however, you can't abduct your own child (assuming the child was born after 2003, your ex-BIL was the registered father and there were no court orders in place). The law doesn't recognise it.

I'm not going to deny cases like the one you've described. It would be naive to think they don't happen, but they are now becoming more rare. I wish people would complain more. Despite what many think, our culture of accountability us such that these matters ARE addressed in the main, although you won't always see the outcome and it won't automatically result in anyone losing their job.

Coming back to words of advice, a PP suggested it may have something to do with victims withdrawing support part way through proceedings. That's partly true. Another reason is because I'm told the evidence base suggests words of advice have virtually no impact on domestic abusers and by making it a police decision rather than a victim decision some protection is offered to the victim - there's no point in a perpetrator trying to intimidate a victim into giving up support for a prosecution if that victim isn't supporting anyway. That said, I accept the all-or-nothing approach isn't perfect. Many of us would prefer a discretionary approach but this has been removed from us. Partly because in the past inappropriate words of advice were being given when the situation was such that much more robust action should have been taken.

Harry Miller - I think a poll of frontline officers would see 99% think the police handled this badly. (Not that I can speak for all.) Hate crime is a big problem. Particularly for the disabled (who never seem to get the coverage of other groups). It's a hot topic in the police largely guided by the College of Policing. Instead of applying a nuanced approach to look at what has happened, in typical police fashion we've formulated a one-size-fits-all 'all hate crime must be tackled robustly' approach, which is undeniably well intentioned but has been misinterpreted by some, especially when it comes to hate incidents. Most police officers groan inwardly whenever the words social media come into a crime report (although ongoing harassment of ex partners as this can be a real warning sign).

A PP said the police are institutionally misogynistic. I think the police reflect the society they serve and that society itself is structurally sexist. Police officers are drawn from society. Much of society (not me) believe women have now achieved equality, forgetting that equal rights in legislation is only the start. Attitudes towards maternity, breastfeeding, part-time working, division of domestic labour, portrayal of women in films/music videos/porn also play a huge part. Police do not count women as inherently vulnerable by virtue of their sex. Misogyny is not a hate crime. All DV victims (male and female) are classed as vulnerable but the blanket label fails to really address the issues in my view. The factors at play for male victims are different for female victims. Even though the impact on the victim may be the same, unless we understand those differences we are ineffectual tackling it in my view.

This is why I'd like to see a change to police training on DV, recognising all this. But I'm not a police chief and don't have the power. Also, the country has repeatedly shown that increasing taxes is a vote loser, even to pay for more refuges (for both sexes), harsher sentences, reform of family law to stop abusers using children to continue abuse of their former partners, or a 'no escape' approach to child support. What your left with is people like me trying to make a difference one case at a time.

Due to the £19,000 starting salary, more and more police officers are joining at a young age

GlummyMcGlummerson · 13/04/2020 18:18

PicsInRed Sad I couldn't agree more. I mean all that isn't solely down to the police but they're a significant link in a very misogynistic chain that has lead to 1% rape convictions - and if the people who are with you from the start can't get it right what hope do women ever have?

canigooutyet · 13/04/2020 18:22

@GlummyMcGlummerson
I remember Poppy and others (used to work in something with cp). That was horrific.
Why shop wearing a uniform or owning a certain badge mean you get away. Without those they would have been prosecuted.

The force let her and many others like her down.

And the force as a whole want respect? Nope. Some individual one absolutely, and it’s only because of those do I call them if needed. Then I hope it’s one of the good ones because from there you could find yourself in a cell. The victim that is.

TomHardysCBBC · 13/04/2020 18:23

I work in MH (within criminal justice) and I'm usually more critiscised than the Police by society, but not the people I work with.

If something negative is reported on MN that I can explain by limited resources/actual powers under the MHA. I will explain because the public perception threshold for an emergency/getting help is often very different to what is possible in the NHS or under the MHA than the public realise.

But if someone says they were ignored, not listened to, disregarded or treated like shit by a MH professional, I will say that shouldn't have happened.

No excuses.

I won't blame the government or say how hard my job is or how I did x, y or z yesterday or in the past which caused me to have PTSD. Or how the complainers couldn't do my job.

Because it's entirely irrelevant to their valid complaint. And is often used as a way to shut people down when it shouldn't be.

canigooutyet · 13/04/2020 18:23

Shop = should

canigooutyet · 13/04/2020 18:34

Many will have had some grievance at some point with the NHS.

However, here is the massive difference. From the time things start to go wrong, they are a lot more supportive. Even Pals. And even when things really wrong something happens.

How often do we hear about public NHS claims to push them to do something because they are doing something or something went wrong?

Of course they happen. But look at how they handle the situation. They take ownership eventually by sincerely apologies. If change needs to be made they make it. Thank goodness.

Now look at some of the examples from 5 years ago. Have things changed? 🤣 have they promised changes, yes far too much.

If nhs and education can make the promises and actually implement them, then why is the force unable to? It’s not they are swimming in cash.

And what makes things worse. The changes that need to be made are legal changes anyway.

If my surgeon decided to chop of my tits on a whim. He wouldn’t get away with it. But some officers do as they please and oopsie. Including deaths. I only lost my tits.

canigooutyet · 13/04/2020 18:36

Not that I am Down playing the loss of breasts in my hypothetical situation.

Cherrysoup · 13/04/2020 18:37

It's a bit disingenuous to try and compare policing to "any other job" when it comes to standards of behaviour. Or rather, when "any other job" carries the same powers the police have (powers of arrest, detention and to use force in the pursuit of those actions) then the comparison is valid.

@ProfessorSlocombe hmm, I’m not trying to compare. That would be dishonest, rather than disingenuous! I think that psychological screening should be used when recruiting but recruitment is at an all time low and it is my opinion that some of the applicants should not be accepted, but desperate times and all that. What I will say is that a serving officer will be sanctioned, the same as a civilian, if found guilty of a crime, possibly more so because of professional standards.

Unfortunately, it’s not a crime to be a wanker and I think some situations where an officer has made a serious error of judgement will be highlighted in the current climate, actually quite rightly. I know my DH’s team has been urged to be ‘persuasive’ rather than reactive. It’s pointless increasing the volatility of a situation but they’re between a rock and a hard place currently, often not enough of them and some of them interpreting the legislation in a frankly ridiculous manner.

PicsInRed · 13/04/2020 18:42

Another reason is because I'm told the evidence base suggests words of advice have virtually no impact on domestic abusers

That's due to structural issues and family court preferences around child contact keeping women trapped in the same home as the abuser. It doesn't negate the value of "advice", if the women feels it would help her own situation.

That said, I accept the all-or-nothing approach isn't perfect.

The issue with "all or nothing", is that invariably when dealing with some very vulnerable victims, it will be "nothing". It is "nothing".

PicsInRed · 13/04/2020 18:48

CatOnLaptop

I mean, I can see what you're saying, and I very much appreciate the insight that you're giving us into what decisions are taken by police and why. Thank you.

However, the fact remains that that domestic abuse and rape are specifically dealt with differently to other crimes and not to the advantage of the victim. In fact we are heavily scrutinised, then see worse outcomes.

RedDogsBeg · 13/04/2020 18:48

CatOnLaptop Hate crime is a big problem. Particularly for the disabled (who never seem to get the coverage of other groups). It's a hot topic in the police largely guided by the College of Policing. Instead of applying a nuanced approach to look at what has happened, in typical police fashion we've formulated a one-size-fits-all 'all hate crime must be tackled robustly' approach, which is undeniably well intentioned but has been misinterpreted by some, especially when it comes to hate incidents.

We could have a very lengthy back and forth about this, but as far as I am concerned crime is the big problem and that is what should be dealt with robustly. There should be no such thing as a non crime hate incident, all power to Harry Miller for exposing this and I hope it leads to changes within the Police and the College of Policing.

If 99% of front line officers think this was handled badly why don't they speak out collectively as a group, the Police Federation has power to be heard by Government, the Home Secretary attends their conference, they are not backwards in coming forwards on other matters. The pubic would certainly back them, support them and respect them far more if they did.

Due to the £19,000 starting salary, more and more police officers are joining at a young age

What age are you suggesting here? The retired police officer I know very well who, incidentally, has lost all respect and trust in the Police in their present incarnation (which is incredibly sad as he was extremely proud of his profession and had always wanted to be a Police Officer), joined the cadets at 16, was a Police Constable at 18 doing the mandatory two years probation and a fully fledged PC at 20.

Walkingtohealth · 13/04/2020 18:50

Can't be arsed to wade through self righteousness idiots moshing about the police.

Did the OP ever return after her ONE reply on Page 1?

If not I suspect either a goady fuckwit or a journalist.

RedDogsBeg · 13/04/2020 18:53

Wow, that was one helluva contribution Walkingtohealth, why bother commenting if you can't be bothered to read?

PicsInRed · 13/04/2020 18:56

Walkingtohealth

Hope that's just the one walk per day...