To be worried about people over 70 who aren't really taking COVID seriously

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I'm really worried about friends and neighbours over 70. They seem to be the ones who are still out and about, going for papers and pensions, refusing offers of help and generally not wanting to make a fuss. I'm sure they think old people are someone else! How do we get across to them that it's really important? They also seem to think that we will all be back to normal next week !!

My mum (72, cancer recently, cardiac problems) asked me twice today if I was tricking her into staying home as her neighbours are still at work. As I was dropping her notreallyessentialbutcantwait shopping off having managed to do a big shop for my household and hers last week, but she still needed extras. I asked her for a list for my next big shop tomorrow and she was just vacant. I don't want to keep nipping out.

Yes I know there are lots of younger folk not sticking to the rules, but my mum is just so indignant.

Nobody over 60 is going to get anywhere near a ventilator or an ITU bed, it’ll be palliative care only

That's me and my DH fucked then. First I've heard of that.

I think some of them honestly don't care if they catch it. They maybe think they've lived long enough and won't stop their daily lives because of potential contact with a virus that is likely to kill them.

It's not great, but can't force them to stay at home. If they won't accept help, and want to go out, there's nothing we can do.

It’s me fucked as well. I’m 67 this year and have no expectation of getting a ventilator if I get this and become really ill. Nor should I get one. That’s the reason I’m staying at home apart from a dog walk at the quietest part of the day and a big shop as infrequently as we can manage.

People over 60 not getting beds in ICU? My mum is 63. Very fit, works, no underlying health conditions. As if they would just turn someone away just because they are over 60.

I am sure all the over 70s 'get it', some have just come to a decision to ignore the advice and take a risk, because they know the risk is going to be around for a very long time. If I was 70 I dare say that I would make the same decision.

@Alsohuman please show me where it says that no one over the age of 60 will get an ICU bed/ventilator?

NHS Covid-19 Decision Support Tool

FT
http://prod-upp-image-read.ft.com/765d3430-7a57-11ea-af44-daa3def9ae03

3 domains, each of which defines a separate points score:

⏺ Age
⏺ Clinical Fraily
⏺ Comobordity

These are summed to give a points total for the 3 domains
The higher the score, the worse the prognosis

There is in effect a 4th Domain:

⏺ Sex

Women are given the advantage of subtracting 1 point
Presumably taking account of v different male / female survival rates across the world

ABOVE 8 points, a patient is not treated in ICU
(clinical discretion remains)

The older people are at much higher risk. That is a fact. They might want to take their chances by going out every day and do their couple shopping. It’s what they spread to the people around them that is key.

These disease is not ageist but the people it hits harder are the older ones. If your Mum wants to mix with her friends I hope they have all agreed that when their time is up it’s up.

My gran is elderly and highly vulnerable. She hasn’t been strictly following the lockdown rules for her age/risk group. Her rationale is that she feels like she’s on death’s door anyway and if she got it she would refuse to go to hospital and just die at home. I was angry with her for this approach but actually I can’t be sure I’d feel differently in her situation. If you feel like it’s your last spring/summer anyway would you want to spend it in the house?

BigChocFrenzy The tool is for supporting decisions not replacing them. If you read the criteria you have to be vey unwell not to be admitted to ITU at 60. The score of over eight is not one the usually we’ll need worry about.
The scale means a usually quite well 75 year old with controlled diabetes still gets ITU care. It certainly doesn’t mean people over 60 get shown the door.
You simply wouldn’t ventilate a 73 year old with end stage terminal disease in normal times.

Over 60s not getting admitted to ITU is scaremongering and inaccurate bollocks. The median age of an ITU patient for COVID19 is 61. There is a significant cohort of patients in their 60s and 70s receiving ITU intervention including ventilation, if appropriate. I wish people wouldn’t waste their energy on upsetting others.

There seems to be a good number on here who don't want their older realtive to die - because THEY don't want them to.

The relative may be accepting of death and that their life doesn't really meet their needs any more BUT NO they can't die because a younger relative doesn't want them to.
I'm mid 60s, not ready to die yet, (don't score anything on the NHS score) and following (not OBEYING) government guidelines. If I get CV19 mildly I expect to survive. However, if I am seriously ill, I don't want intensive care. Let me go. I am retired, my life is fine and I'm happy to live another 20 or so years (parents both reached 90s). I don't want to go on existing at all costs. And I certainly don't want to go on existing just because my kids aren't ready for me to die.

And I'd rather die of CV19 now than end up dribbling, incontinent and with dementia at any time.

DH is an intensive care consultant. The ages of his current covid patients is 30 - 68. There are three in their sixties.

Seems the ones in their sixties who got an intensive care bed had either diabetes or no underlying issue. Vast majority are under 60.

I could have written your post @Khione.

Thank you - it's good to know my post (almost) made sense.

I don't think we're the only ones by a long way

No, I’m sure we’re not.

@Alsohuman

Not wanting intensive care treatment is not the same as saying ” Nobody over 60 is going to get anywhere near a ventilator or an ITU bed, it’ll be palliative care only.” That is an inaccurate statement and unnecessarily worries a lot of of people. Our studies have shown that, of course, older people are getting ITU treatment if medically appropriate. Statistics do not lie; www.icnarc.org/DataServices/Attachments/Download/c31dd38d-d77b-ea11-9124-00505601089b

According to this tool my DM would score 4 and therefore get an ITU bed, she is 71

They maybe think they've lived long enough and won't stop their daily lives because of potential contact with a virus that is likely to kill them

It’s not LIKELY to kill them. The mortality rate for over 70s is estimated at 8%. 11 out of 12 cases will survive.

user1471500037 Mon 13-Apr-20 17:45:14

There is a lot of elderly and vulnerable people out and about - as they are the ones likely to end up in hospital they need to stay in more than the young. I would have a stronger lockdown on these groups

Okay, we're not quite 70 yet but we're close and we both fall into high risk groups anyway. Because neither of us is ill enough to be in the shielded category and because all the delivery slots are being taken by people who could probably get to a supermarket, but as one neighbour said of herself 'don't want to waste hours in a queue', we are having to do our own shopping and walk home as we don't have a car.

We go to the nearest supermarket late in the evening while it's quietest and we go twice a week maximum, normally just once but you know, milk and bread. So we do an early week main shop and a late week top-up. Otherwise we haven't left the house in weeks apart from going into our own garden.

What stricter fucking lockdown would you like for us? Not allowed out to shop? Not allowed into our garden? Every time we go to the shop we see younger people out in groups - those 6 teenagers must be sextuplets if they're all the same family. We see 20-40s out cycling, wearing masks, but removing them to chat to the friend walking past and standing about a foot apart.

Stop with the bloody ageism. It's not all older people and it's not only older people. Stupid cunts are born into every generation. Even yours.

The reality is however those teenagers might not even know they have it, that 30 something might have 3 days in bed. Those in their 60 or 70s (especially with pre-existing conditions) have a 1 in 3 chance of needing a hospital bed.

I am keeping my teens in, it is heart breaking for them and for me , I have some sympathy with those breaking the lock down. Less so the older folk "nipping" to the shop, buying a bloody lottery ticket or news paper.

@ hopefulhalf

Those teens and other younger people are as likely to transmit the virus as someone older. It's not just about keeping yourself safe, it's about not infecting others whatever their age.

You said you have 'some sympathy with those breaching lockdown. Unless they're old. Enough said - yet another ageist MN post.

It is harder for teens to stay in all the time because of something that is extremely unlikely to harm them, leaving aside the natural impulsivity, lack of planning and disinhibtion in the teenage brain, compared to supposedly mature adults who are at direct risk of harm. You must be able to see that.

My sodding MIL is still working two days a week in a supermarket because her manager has realised that she’s not looking after toddler DD every day any more (DP is now out of work and I’m WFH) - keeps calling her in and she’s ‘happy to help them out while they’re short staffed’.

She and FIL are also delivering food and other goods to local relatives who are ‘older and need looking after’. MIL is 72 and FIL is 77....

Also actually possibly less likely to transmit as more agile immune response and lower viral load with fewer symptoms is likely to mean lower infectivity, but balanced against that is the increased liklihood of assymptomatic carriage.