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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Second year health students

57 replies

jasjas1973 · 09/04/2020 17:20

DD just been told her Occupational Therapy degree course (she is in her 2nd year) is to be changed to a 60% work (not OT related) 40% study instead.

She is still to apply for her full grant next year and must keep up her flat rent, even though is now at home and neither does she know where she will be sent or indeed if she will at all, as they aren't sure what she'll be doing, where and it may be optional but if she chooses to stay at Uni, they don't know how they can accommodate that!!!

This is into the next academic year NOT just until September which we would understand and be keen to help.

I know these are hard times but is it really wise to screw over the next generation of HCP's ? who are not about to qualify like a year 3 nursing student nor have they spent long periods on placement in a hospital.

OP posts:
HitsAndMrs · 09/04/2020 18:14

Do you mean 60% placements?
I'm a third year Physiotherapy student (part time, one placement to go until final year) and they can't find us placements sites at all so I'm not sure how they will accommodate for this?!
Hardly any trusts are taking students at the moment.
Have they said how many placement hours it will increase by? We have to do 1000 clinical hours as part of our degree, plus an extra 80 to account for any days off. It's already alot!!

jasjas1973 · 10/04/2020 08:09

@HitsAndMrs No, work, not placement, would be paid at band 3 rate. so says the email from the head of OT at the Uni, work would be in any aspect of healthcare, i.e. support worker, not necessarily in your study choice, similar emails sent to other healthcare related courses.

Do we want properly qualified HCPs in the next 2 or 3 years or not? and why asking them to take out another student loan?

I could understand postponing the course for year and then restarting year 3 in Sept 2021 but as well as working in the CV environment, are also expected to complete their degree and take out the loans too for the privilege :(

OP posts:
Cornishmumofone · 10/04/2020 08:44

Which uni is she at? I'm not aware of any others doing that.

DontBiteTheBoobThatFeedsYou · 10/04/2020 08:46

.

jasjas1973 · 10/04/2020 08:50

@Cornishmumofone

Plymouth Uni but its from the NHS not the Uni (they just sent out the email containing the new measures.... and applies across the board to all allied healthcare students in yr 2 and upwards and post grad yr 1.

OP posts:
DontBiteTheBoobThatFeedsYou · 10/04/2020 09:26

As far as I understand it, it's voluntary.

Mlou32 · 10/04/2020 09:27

I know it's far from ideal, however in reality, you don't actually start learning until you start doing the job in my experience. I'm a mental health nurse and I feel like I could have studied for half of the three years that I did, uni taught me that little. The theory was all very well and good but I learnt more in the 6 months that I was qualified than I did during my 3 years of studying.

Obviously I'm not an occupational therapist however I have many friends in other people facing occupations ie social work, teaching etc who say similar.

It will be difficult for your friend but she will get through this and perhaps the experience will benefit her in a way.

jasjas1973 · 10/04/2020 09:49

No its not voluntary, as the alternative hasn't been laid out but may be distance learning and nothing else for your £9250.00 fee.

Learning on the job is fine, which is why they have to complete 1000 hours of unpaid placement, however this wouldn't be that, this would be working on the frontline with little if any supervision in place.

However, if they are needed for this, then scrub the tuition fees for yr 3 and the ridiculous 6% interest charged on loans.

OP posts:
DontBiteTheBoobThatFeedsYou · 10/04/2020 09:51

but may be distance learning and nothing else for your £9250.00 fee

So they are considering an alternative? Which would make working at band 3 voluntary?

They have to have an alternative because not everyone will be able to work for various reasons, but mainly if they are in the at-risk category.

DontBiteTheBoobThatFeedsYou · 10/04/2020 09:52

1000 hours of unpaid placement, however this wouldn't be that, this would be working on the frontline with little if any supervision in place.

You're very wrong there.

There would absolutely be supervision in place.
And I'm also not sure you're correct about it not counting as placement hours.

Can you copy and paste the email here?

Mlou32 · 10/04/2020 09:54

@jasjas1973 sorry, I meant your daughter, not your friend.

I complete agree with the tuition fee thing, it should be drastically lowered to compensate for the reduction in teaching hours, whether that be in theory or in clinical placement. This is something that she should be bringing up with her university. Do occupational therapy students have a union, much like nursing students can join and use the RCN? If so, they may be a good first point of call, along with her students union, if they are still operating at the moment.

DontBiteTheBoobThatFeedsYou · 10/04/2020 09:56

Student finance England are making decisions to waive the fees (if they haven't already).

Also, I know some professions are allowing students to have their maintenance loan on top of band 3 payments.
They also won't be paying tax or NI.

A lot of students will be quids in for now at least

Mlou32 · 10/04/2020 09:59

Also, she wouldn't be working on the frontline with very little if any supervising. There will be qualified nurses (or other healthcare professionals) around at all times.

Most likely, if on a ward environment, she would be doing the job of a healthcare assistant, so changing beds, assisting patients with personal care, perhaps taking obs ie blood pressure, temp, heart rate etc. All while under supervision from a qualified nurse. The nurse may not be standing over her every step she takes but this does not mean that she isn't being supervised. She, as a student on a professional course, would also be expected to have common sense and to ask for assistance/direction if she finds herself working outwith her scope of practice.

Kuponut · 10/04/2020 10:04

Placemarking as if you could paste the email I'd be rather interested to see it - I'm a 1st year on an allied healthcare course and we've heard anything - and I would have to drop off the course/defer instead of doing that route to be honest.

There's no way you could cut that level of content out of our course and still have qualified competent professionals at the end of it - I fear this might all be the end for some of the allied professions to be honest as it sets the "oh we didn't do that year for the 2020 group... let's make it a 2 year... let's remove the degree" type precedent.

Kind of jealous of your daughter though as OT sounds so interesting and DD2 loved her OT sessions - I was tempted but went down a slightly different route.

We've had all our placements currently suspended and I suspect eventually will have to slog through a summer to make up the hours - which will bugger up my childcare splendidly but hey ho will worry when we get there - more annoyed as I had a placement coming up that sounded really really interesting but I think the plan is for us to keep those placement settings and just change the time for them.

jasjas1973 · 10/04/2020 10:40

@Kuponut

You are year 1, so your studies will continue as before, however, as you say, it will be next to impossible to get placement hours.

Yes i agree, the courses will be dumbed down, OT is very interesting subject

@Mlou32 OT's don't do blood pressure, making beds etc that is not what a degree course and 50k of debt is about.
With qualified and full time staff flat out and redeployed and virtually all non CV stuff stopped, how much supervision do you think they will get in any relevant field?

Perhaps worse than this is that there isn't the PPE in hospitals for the staff they ve currently got, let alone 1000s of additional workers with little or no training in CV infection control.

OP posts:
jasjas1973 · 10/04/2020 10:44

@Kuponut Take a look, its what the email was based on....
www.hee.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/documents/AHP%20student%20support%20guide%20Covid-19.pdf

OP posts:
Doggybiccys · 10/04/2020 11:07

I am a nurse redeployed to front line but until that was in education role, a part of which was supporting clinical areas so they could take student nurses.

All HCP students are being asked to opt-in to emergency expansion of the workforce- this includes medical students, nurses, OTs, physios and other AHPs. This is a four nation inititaive and all the health care regulatory bodies have signed an agreeement supporting it. No offence - but the AHPs/associated universities offering these courses have been much slower to respond that nurses, midwives and medics.

Essentially there is no capacity to support health care students as learners during the crisis. I can only speak with authority about student nurses. They are normally supernumerary i.e. not counted in staffing numbers. That requirement has been removed. They will still be supervised in clinical areas but not to the level they would have been prior to the crisis. This effectively means they either go out as non-supernumeray student on a paid health care support worker contract or they take a hiatus and continue their studies after the crisis.

No-one can be forced to do this. If your DD doesn't want to pay/do distance learning, she should request a temporary withdrawal from her programme and re-start when its over. This will likely mean she graduates later than she would have normally, but there is no perfect solution to the crisis.

And it is not just student nurses about to qualify - it is all student nurse except first years. Year 2s placements have also stopped so they too have been asked to opt-in to paid employment and be a non-supernumerary student. For year 2, the NMC requirement to have a 50-50 split between theory and practice has been changed to allow an 80-20% split with 80% being clinical hours. The "missing" theory will need to be caught up in year 3 and the NMC will demand to see evidence of that.

Of the students I have worked with, around 95% want to take join the expanding the workforce initiative. Of the rest, some are shielding/high risk, carrying academic or clinical fails or have chosen not to opt-in.

Students continuing on their studies will absolutely not be expected to continue after the start of the academic year. The continuation past that is for those who are nearly qualified to be kept on in the workforce until their registration with their professional body comes through, which normally takes around six weeks from their application after the official end of their programme. Also - there is no guarantee that Unis will start again in September as normal - some are looking to defer the new academic year as far back as January next year.

I have to say, most students are cock-a-hoop about it all as they are getting paid to do what they would otherwise have done "for free". The students who are high risk are livid they cannot do it. Some students will be getting around £25k and their paperwork signed off!

It is an awful situation all round but as I say, there is no perfect solution. I appreciate it is different for your DD as she is not a student nurse and will be doing stuff that is maybe not directly relevant to her programme. But rather than focussing on what won't happen, can she try to think about what she could gain from this? We are living through history and as scary as it is, health care students will gain masses of experience working through this. It won't be for everybody and some will cope better than others (not meant to be insulting or suggesting those who don't cope as well are somehow less worthy as it is a fact of life that we are all different). Your DD needs to think about the best approach for her whilst remembering that she will still qualify as an OT at some point - just now when she had hoped.

It also sounds like her Uni is not providing enough information. Our local Uni has already said that those opting-in can live in accomodation for a reduced rate over the summer as they normally rent out to tourists but that won't be happening this year.

Mlou32 · 10/04/2020 11:14

@jasjas1973 nowhere did I say that OTs did blood pressure, temps etc. However. I'm a nurse in a mental health inpatient facility and we have a full time OT who, along with 80% of their work being taken up by occupation therapy activities, do spend time working with the nursing team, assisting with patients care ie basic obs, personal care etc. This is under normal circumstances that they assist with such tasks, I'm not talking about special circumstances due to COVID-19.

Do you think your daughter is above things like personal care, changing beds etc? Because let me inform you, she is not. Usually on my ward it is the HCAs who do the majority of that stuff (obviously us nurses do it as well but because we are usually so busy with stuff that can only be done by RNs, these sorts of tasks usually fall to our fantastic HCAs). However at the moment, with staff sickness and staff redeployment, we are on the bones of our arse. Yesterday myself and the ward doctor cleaned up a lady who had had an accident and needed our help. The doctors, nurses, HCAs, our OT and our physio are all mucking in wherever we can. We are all doing jobs that are not usually under our remit.

So if your daughter came to my ward with the attitude that she is somehow special because she is studying OT and looked down on things such as personal care, she would be out the door before her feet touched the ground. Everyone is having to work out with their scope of practice and just muddle on though. The lowly doctors, nurses, physios and even the grand OTs!

Oh and in regards to supervision which you claim there won't be any of; I can guarantee you that if someone is doing something under my PIN, they will be supervised, no doubt about that.

Doggybiccys · 10/04/2020 11:19

@Kuponut
You are year 1, so your studies will continue as before, however, as you say, it will be next to impossible to get placement hours.
Yes i agree, the courses will be dumbed down, OT is very interesting subject

Courses will not be dumbed down and placement hours will need to be made up in subsequent years. It may mean students graduating later than intended but regulatory bodies will still require Unis to provide evidence that all the programme learning outcomes and hours have been met. Course leaders will be working like crazy over the summer to make amendments to programmes and courses to ensure this happens.

@Mlou32 OT's don't do blood pressure, making beds etc that is not what a degree course and 50k of debt is about.
With qualified and full time staff flat out and redeployed and virtually all non CV stuff stopped, how much supervision do you think they will get in any relevant field?

But she is not going out as an OT or a student OT. What they are saying is that OTs (and others) cannot be supported as learners therefore placements are suspended. Those who wish can opt-in as HCSWs. There was a British Airways cabin crew staff member interviewed yesterday on BBC who was working as an HCSW - I would imagine an OT student would be as capable if not more of picking up the role. She won't get supervision like she would as a student OT - she will work in a team which has a registered nurse in charge who will delegate work according to her HCSW status. This is what happens every day in the NHS when new staff start.

Perhaps worse than this is that there isn't the PPE in hospitals for the staff they ve currently got, let alone 1000s of additional workers with little or no training in CV infection control.

Part of their induction will be universal infection control precautions and Covid-19 specific infection control measure. As a student OT, your DD should already be used to working with the universal precautions. I agree however that PPE is a worry. At the end of the day, if it is too much of a worry, she needs to approach her programme leader to request a deferral until after the crisis.

Thrashscar · 10/04/2020 11:19

My DD is doing an OT course and she’s had a similar email though it is all voluntary. They said due to financial circumstances, some students might want to take up a band 3 job which they may be able to use maximum 100 hours of paid work towards the hours needed to qualify and that the students that decide to do this will have 100 hours taken off their final year placement.

Mlou32 · 10/04/2020 11:20

Also your claim that it is not voluntary for your daughter to opt into this 'revised program of study' is in stark contrast to the guidance that you have linked to. Perhaps that's something that she needs to discuss again with her tutor.

Lillylouise89 · 10/04/2020 11:28

So if your daughter came to my ward with the attitude that she is somehow special because she is studying OT and looked down on things such as personal care, she would be out the door before her feet touched the ground. Everyone is having to work out with their scope of practice and just muddle on though. The lowly doctors, nurses, physios and even the grand OTs!
I’m now a qualified OT and in one of my placement settings (community hospital) we all had to do personal care other than doctors. If someone had an accident, we couldn’t just pass them onto a HCA, we had to do it.
I felt entirely out of my depth for a while but honestly it was one of the best learning experiences I had. The need for verbal and non verbal communication you need to reassure people, the empathy for their feelings, the ability to make people feel at ease set me up for life.
I don’t know if the OP has complained about the idea that her DD could be doing personal care as a volunteer or band 3 but if she has, that’s a real shame because she’s entirely missing the point of OT. You don’t have to be in an OT role to apply the principles of OT and I’m sure OP’s DD will have different placement settings in charities and such where she’ll learn that.
Volunteering or entering into paid work as an HCA is absolutely nothing to look down upon, it’s valuable work and will teach your DD SO much. She just won’t have the ‘OT’ label but there is OT anywhere you want to look for it.

Mlou32 · 10/04/2020 11:40

Exactly Lilly, personal care gives you so much, it's not just a basic task to be completed. You build up a rapport with the patient, enhance your communication skills, learn how to work with a patient in a way that promotes dignity and empathy and above all, assisting with personal care and making a patient comfortable and cared for is one of the most important gifts that a healthcare professional, in any branch of healthcare can give to a patient.

I'm not saying that it will replace your daughters clinical OT placements, of course it won't, but it will give her many transferable skills which she can use to enhance her OT practice.

DontBiteTheBoobThatFeedsYou · 10/04/2020 11:49

So if your daughter came to my ward with the attitude that she is somehow special because she is studying OT and looked down on things such as personal care, she would be out the door before her feet touched the ground. Everyone is having to work out with their scope of practice and just muddle on though. The lowly doctors, nurses, physios and even the grand OTs!

I'm in my final year of a child nursing degree (my opt in placement starts on 27th) and I'm currently writing an assignment on leadership.

You babe basically summed up my whole assignment in your post.

You would get a 1:1, can you write it for me? 😁😁😁

DontBiteTheBoobThatFeedsYou · 10/04/2020 11:50

You babe?!

It was supposed to say "your post"