Second year health students

[jasjas1973]

DD just been told her Occupational Therapy degree course (she is in her 2nd year) is to be changed to a 60% work (not OT related) 40% study instead.

She is still to apply for her full grant next year and must keep up her flat rent, even though is now at home and neither does she know where she will be sent or indeed if she will at all, as they aren't sure what she'll be doing, where and it may be optional but if she chooses to stay at Uni, they don't know how they can accommodate that!!!

This is into the next academic year NOT just until September which we would understand and be keen to help.

I know these are hard times but is it really wise to screw over the next generation of HCP's ? who are not about to qualify like a year 3 nursing student nor have they spent long periods on placement in a hospital.

I would happily do personal care in this situation. I'm a safeguarding social worker in an inpatient mental health setting and of course at this time we are working outwith our roles, that's to be expected; I've been cleaning and doing obs and assisting with meal delivery and doing internal post so ward staff don't have to waste time on it and so on, and I do it all happily as it is part of being a team.

However, if I were currently training and told that my course was being so massively changed that instead of the academic learning essential to my professional role I would be working as a band 3 undertaking tasks that did not form part of the role I was training to qualify in, of course I would be concerned. Some aggressive posts by pp seem to think that this would mean I felt myself to be "above" a care role, which is disappointing.

The roles of OT, social worker, etc are just as valuable as those of nurses, HCAs, doctors. Our training also matters. It's a real shame to hear from nurses whose response to concerns that the proposed arrangements would negatively impact that training is "So if your daughter came to my ward with the attitude that she is somehow special because she is studying OT and looked down on things such as personal care, she would be out the door before her feet touched the ground". I imagine a lot of people's feet would be out of the door long before they were told. Managers who assume people's concerns means they think they are too good for something tend to be managers who see it as their place to take people down a peg or two, and those are really bad managers to have.

OP, in your daughter's shoes I'd do the band 3 role and look on it as valuable additional experience.

The roles of OT, social worker, etc are just as valuable as those of nurses, HCAs, doctors. Our training also matters. It's a real shame to hear from nurses whose response to concerns that the proposed arrangements would negatively impact that training
But by the sounds of it, her training wouldn’t be impacted.
As I said, in my OT placement, basically all I was doing was personal care which is very OT centred. Even if OP’s DD isn’t doing home safety assessments for discharge, she can mentally run through what the skills are that she’s witnessing, how things could be adapted. You can’t get more conventional OT than personal care.
What’s the alternative? Say if she does no personal care through volunteering as suggested in the email and doesn’t happen to ever get a placement setting where personal care is required. Then when she qualifies, what is she going to do when she’s faced with personal care? She’s going to have a bit of a shock. It was a shock to me on my placement because I had no experience of it and at uni we were never ever ever told that getting up close with personal care would be a requirement.
It absolutely isn’t detrimental to her training, it’s giving her a broader range of what to expect upon qualifying. If she becomes the sort of OT that refuses to make patient beds after getting them dressed and out of bed, she will not be popular at work.
Being a HCA may not need a degree but it is in no way unskilled.

@Mlou32 maybe not intentionally but you come across very badly here. Exactly why many people are anxious about redeployment and being out in positions where people think they are precious and above basic care when actually they are way out of their depth. And that's ok. But hospital wards are full of people like you happy to lord it over them and treat them as though they think of themselves as precious princesses. I've seen it a lot this week in my hospital. I agree, very disappointed to hear that kind of talk.

In terms of AHP courses and placements, no idea what will happen as most AHPs will not be doing their roles for many many months. I'm an acute AHP and am still doing my job but no way could have students and wouldn't expect to for a long time. That said, a spell doing care is a real skill and asset to future work but it cannot be in replace of the placements / modules doing your own role. I recruit within my team and wouldn't employ a band 5 who has missed a year of her course even if they were a HCA for the duration, I would expect that they went back to uni and redid what was missed. No idea what will actually happen though.

I recruit within my team and wouldn't employ a band 5 who has missed a year of her course even if they were a HCA for the duration

But that's exactly what every 2nd year student nurses will be doing.

Working at band 3 for most of their second year.
You can't not employ them because their course changed during this crisis?!

I'm in my third year (Feb in take) and the last 10 months of my degree will be working at band 3 (then hopefully band 4, then qualify to band 5), during this crisis.

As are all the other student nurses bar a handful.

You're not surely suggesting this makes us unemployable in your eyes?!

In my opinion being thrown into the deep end will be excellent learning!

It's a real shame to hear from nurses whose response to concerns that the proposed arrangements would negatively impact that training is "So if your daughter came to my ward with the attitude that she is somehow special because she is studying OT and looked down on things such as personal care, she would be out the door before her feet touched the ground"
Managers who assume people's concerns means they think they are too good for something tend to be managers who see it as their place to take people down a peg or two, and those are really bad managers to have.

You seem to be doing a lot of assuming here yourself @Iwalkinmyclothing. I never have, nor would I ever "take people down a peg or two" if they were looking down their nose at personal care. And that's where the distinction lies, looking down their nose or having a genuine concern. It's generally pretty easy to tell, especially after speaking to someone about it, if their hesitance to do personal care is due to not feeling confident about the task/being concerned that they will be missing out on other learning opportunities and just downright disdain for the task. Those who fall into the former catagory, I have no problem with and would and do take the time to teach them how to do do it until they have the proficinecy and confidence to do it themsleves. We have all been learners at some point and we all need to be taught before we can do things properly. However the latter group (who I have come across during my own student days with fellow students), I would not tolerate. And I think from reading the OP's posts, it's appears (I could be wrong but I doubt it from her language) that there is at least a hint of feeling that personal care, changing beds and taking basic obs are above her DD. Not that DD will even be there in the capacity of an OT or OT student, she will be there in the capacity of a paid band 3 HCSW.

If you, as a social worker, would be willing to tolerate students coming in to your workplace and looking down their noses (as opposed to having genuine concerns, which I would think you would have ascertained while discussing it with them) at carrying out certain activities that they don't think is in their remit but said activity would help the service user immensely, then that's your outlook.

So does that mean you won't write my assignment?

@cantbreatheenough and that's your opinion. I think you come across badly as you have made an assumption about what I mean without bothering to give it the least bit of thought and are running away with your incorrect assumption.

I have already stated that there is a major difference between those who have a genuine concern in regards to how working outwith their own placement are will affect their learning and those who simply look down on a task because they think it's beneath them.

For what it's worth, I didn't take that from your post at all.

@DontBiteTheBoobThatFeedsYou ha you wouldn't catch me taking on another assignment for all the tea in China! My nursing degree ruined me and I have no intention to ever set foot in academia again!

Good luck with your next placement. I remember how nerve wracking new placements can be and it'll be extra nerve wracking under the current circumstances. Hopefully you'll have lots of support from your mentor.

@DontBiteTheBoobThatFeedsYou I don't recruit nurses. The posts I recruit for have very little to do with ward work nor hospitals. My AHP role is very far removed from HCA/care work. A year doing that is extremely beneficial for anyone working in the NHS, but it can't in any way replace year 2 in my field which has nothing to do with that.

Don't worry, everyone will take different things from posts, that's the problem with written communication and not knowing or being able to see the person! I am actually super patient and have all the time in the world for students, it's people who come in and look down their noses at certain tasks who get my goat! I certainly have no issue with those who want to learn but are lacking confidence or who have genuine concers.

@cantbreatheenough - I recruit within my team and wouldn't employ a band 5 who has missed a year of her course even if they were a HCA for the duration, I would expect that they went back to uni and redid what was missed. No idea what will actually happen though.

This doesn't even make sense. They won't be able to register as an AHP in their chosen profession if they haven't gone back and covered what was missed (you can re-do something you haven't done!). Of course that will happen. So you people who have "missed a year" won't even be in a position to apply for a band 5. Worst case scenario is the people will graduate/qualify later than planned but will have hopefully gained some additional skills, experience and resilience as a result of the emergency situation.

@cantbreatheenough I see.

However, surely if they don't work for a year, they simply qualify late when they are fully fledged in whatever job it is?

I though that's what the OP was saying the uni were suggesting? That they work as a band 3 for the period missed they would otherwise be at uni/on placement, pay fees and graduate at the same time with missed sections of the course? Apologies if that's not what she meant, just how I interpreted it.

I mean, that's not how our uni is doing it.

We are either staying at uni and waiting until this shit show is over and qualifying later.

Or working at a band 3, whilst being supervised and learning on the job, whilst working up bands towards qualifying.

I've no idea where OT's usually have their placements, I've never worked with student OT's just qualified ones. But I'd like to think there would be a huge element of learning for them. I know there will be for us, I can't see how they would dump and run from the OT's.

We really need to see the actual email because we're just going by what the OP has said.

@Mlou32
Made a quite few character destroying assumptions there haven't you?

My DD works for a care agency providing adult social care in the community (as she has a car) during her holidays, involving everything from washing men & women's genitalia to taking them shopping to dealing with patients suffering from Dementia and all that entails.
awaits an apology zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

IF the new role is within any branch of OT (she particularly likes mental health) then fine but that is not what she has been told, it will be in whatever they find her to do and as i said earlier, with much of the NHS just dealing with CV-19 and redeployments, then this looks to me as just a means to put more bodies on a ward and not about training to be (in my DD case) an OT.

Perhaps a better solution would be to ask students to work in a hospital or suspend training for those that cannot not, until this is over and then re start year 3 in Sept 2021?

Perhaps a better solution would be to ask students to work in a hospital or suspend training for those that cannot not, until this is over and then re start year 3 in Sept 2021?

That's almost exactly what is happening.

You have just described her choice. Work in a ward or wait.

As I said - it's voluntary. They can't make her. They also can't force her to drop out completely. So she can qualify late. As you suggested.

As I said a couple of times, we need to see the email.

No it isn't at all.
What is being suggested is spend 40% of your time on the academic side and 60% working (anywhere in the NHS as a support worker) and qualify etc as per normal, there is no mention of qualifying at a later date.
As i said, if it were within an OT setting then fine but it isn't.

Aside, many of her cohort work in the care sector, if they are now working within the NHS, the social care sector will lose this part time labour force too, though i expect many would say whats wrong with a 80 hour week ?
Put em to work the xxxxing Snowflakes!!!

if it were within an OT setting then fine but it isn't
I think you’re overestimating how specialised and specific OT is. You can be an HCA and incorporate OT. For example if she helps with personal care she can perhaps fill out a personal care assessment and give it to a qualified OT or even just reporting back to the team what skills were lacking in a patient e.g sequencing, needing prompting etc. That’s what OT is, it’s really not rocket science that’s a world away from other hospital roles

Yes, but will there be a team that is remotely interested, to pass that assessment onto? let alone an OT ?

This idea that all an OT is someone with a tape measure and an assessment form is rather misleading.

Certainly her 10 weeks in a mental health unit and her previous community placements were far from that.

There are so many areas to OT which have nothing to do with ward work. It's really devaluing to say it's not that far away from doing care work.

I'm not an OT but even I know that they need to be trained in: hand therapy, cognitive assessment and therapy, specialist equipment, education settings, sensory assessments, writing development, mental health and forensic, paediatrics, neuro rehab, EMI, learning disabilities, autism and probably tons more I can't even think of. You can't graduate having missed great big chunks of that learning and experience and expect to be on the HCPC register as an AHP.

As I've already said, a year in care on the ward etc is invaluable experience but can't ever replace the degree level learning and placement in specific clinic areas in order to fulfil all the competencies which allows you to graduate. I'm sure all these students will just have an extra year added on to their degrees.

No @jasjas1973, not really made any assumptions, therefore no need for any apologies, simply went off the haughty manner in which you discussed personal care, changing beds and taking obs in.

She may do it as a part time job however she is not too good for it in her student OT role. As I have already pointed out, our ward OT does all of the above and another qualified OT on this post also did plenty of personal care during her training. So it is something that she may very well find herself doing. If she has experience in it then great, all the better to set her up for working as a band 3 should she so wish. She may learn a lot of transferable skills.

This idea that all an OT is someone with a tape measure and an assessment form is rather misleading
You don’t need to tell me that, I AM an OT.
I know there are unconventional settings- I’ve worked in many. My point is your DD will be in a hospital (I imagine) which is the most standard bread and butter OT there is. She’s not exactly going to be on a social farm is she?

will there be a team that is remotely interested, to pass that assessment onto? let alone an OT?
Perhaps, perhaps not. Probably if she’s in a hospital. Either way, it’s good practice to think for herself about personal care and stairs practice and domestic tasks even if there’s nobody there who wants to hear it from her. You said she’s had experience in mental health and community which is great. Working as a HCA will only serve to increase her competency as an OT, give her transferable skills, help her to see how OT is done in that setting. It can only be a good thing.
You’re not actually an OT so I’m not sure why you think you know so much frankly. If you did then you would think taking on a voluntary or band 3 job is excellent for professional development and not a detriment to your DD. I’ve heard of several unis and obviously the HCPC that are encouraging students to do this so they clearly don’t think it’s a bad thing.

I'm a 2nd year midwifery student and there was a proposal made for us to do 80% placement (paid as a band 4) and 20% theory, but the local trusts cant accommodate us so it's not going ahead now. We would have been working as student midwives though, not HCAs. OTs do such a great job as part of the MDT so it would be a shame if they are being utilised as HCAs instead of working towards their qualifications.