To hope this completely changes the way society works? (working from home/non-essential travel)

[MoonBabysMagicalKalimba]

Disclaimer: Obviously this does not apply to those professions for which WFH will never be an option such as healthcare, retail, tourism & hospitality, and teaching/childcare

In the last few weeks, hundreds of organisations have had to devise and implement full WFH procedures. Many of these organisations had previously told employees that WFH was not possible or permissible, yet when the need arises, it clearly is.

If companies were to continue to allow this going forward, when this mess is all over, this could drastically change how we all work. No more ridiculous traffic in the mornings and evenings, no more hundreds and thousands of Londoners cramming themselves onto tubes and trains from 7-9am and 4-6pm simply to sit in offices all day. We are already seeing a huge reduction in pollution. The majority of the commuter traffic would be taken up by those aforementioned professions who physically need to go in to work, many of which work shifts anyway so we wouldn’t have these bottlenecks of ridiculous congestion morning and evening.

We also need to take a good, hard look at the hundreds of planes that fly around the world every week, of which probably a very decent proportion of passengers are business men and women travelling to other countries for meetings, interviews and conferences that they could most likely very easily attend via video link. Obviously this will not be the case for all business trips and some will be crucial to attend in person, but I think we could lose a decent chunk of them.

These changes would also drastically improve workers mental health and work/home life balance, I’m already seeing it with some colleagues who by losing their daily commute are having an extra 1-2 hours in bed and feeling the benefits to their health. There’d be more time to exercise, and catch up on home chores and admin during lunch breaks. This would also enable parents to drop off/pick their children up from school more often. Obviously this would be when things are more “normal” and children are back in nursery/school and not at home!

I’m not saying everyone with a desk/office job should WFH full time, as there will be those who prefer to go into the office. But a balance could definitely be met. Some could WFH FT, some go into the office FT, and the majority do a combination of both on a rota system. Even these small changes could have a huge impact on the environment and our health.

If this shit situation has taught us anything, it’s that there is absolutely no need for thousands of office workers to travel to and from work, creating or contributing to pollution and congestion, simply to sit at desks behind a screen all day.

Thoughts?

I don't understand how sitting in a cafe with a bunch of strangers is the same as having a chat/ laugh/ catch up with people you know.

I see this is a very popular idea. I still have doubts that it would be beneficial across the board to cut all this human interaction.

I suppose a lot of people are really enjoying the current situation and don't understand that sitting in a cafe with strangers just isn't the same.

I really miss people already and it's only been a week. I miss my work mates, meeting my friends for lunch, going to the pub after work, dancing, meeting new people, all that stuff. It won't be back for months probably so we will all see what the collateral damage looks like and maybe it will be decided it's the way to live going forward.

Cafes hate it when you sit there working for a few hours and only order one cup of tea. It's not good for business.

I mentioned that upthread but no one addressed it.

Some companies before all this were already telling people to work in cafes, it doesn't feel right to take the costs of office space and pass them onto small businesses. Not that there will be many left after this though.

But no-one is saying that all human interaction should be cut. After quarantine, even people who work strictly from home would be able to do the following: meeting my friends for lunch, going to the pub after work, dancing, meeting new people, all that stuff

No-one is saying a cafe is the same as interacting with colleagues, however it can help more extroverted work from homers by providing background noise and a sense of "other humans are in this world!".

The "collateral damage" is from socially isolating in order to slow the spread of coronavirus, not from working from home initiatives.

I'm sorry that you're having an unpleasant experience Beetroot - things will go back to normal eventually and you'll have plenty of opportunities in future to see your friends and colleagues again. But you're right, there won't be anything close to 'normal' for a while. All we can do is try and stay positive and avoid catastrophising.

DH loves working from home. He and his team are linked via Skype and they have conference video calls every day to check in. He's worked from home before - for five years when DS was small - and was constantly trying to persuade his boss it was a good idea. Now he's doing it and his boss is commenting on how well it's working for everyone so we'll see.

I used to work from home 3 days a week, in a two bedroom flat. But that was before DS came along so it was great as we had a room I could set up as an office.

There is an art to working from home. You have to be disciplined to put in the effort, to start work on time and also to finish on time. It's very tempting to say 'I'll just do this one little report' which ends up taking you into the evening when normally you'd shut down because you had a train to catch.

What I'm really interested to see though, is how many meetings are taking place by Skype, Zoom etc., All those people who would waste a day travelling by plane or four hours on a train from one end of the country to the other to do a presentation that they are now doing on line. Even the G7 is being done by Skype or similar. The actual meeting face to face was no more than a handshaking opportunity - because the work has still been done without that face to face need. So hopefully that'll change and put paid to all this 'presenteeism' at meetings etc with the pollution it adds to the world.

That stuff won't happen under these plans as it's things up in town where I work that I'm talking about.

My friends I meet for lunch live maybe 2 hours journey on the train we meet because we work near.

Going to the pub after work won't happen for same reason. Ditto dancing, the places around here are not the same and a spontaneous night out after work is different than organising a whole bunch of people from miles around to meet. There would be no swift pint at 5 before getting home. And TBH I'd never have met these people anyway if we were all just online, not the same. And if course work colleagues are a different relationship to home friends. You go out with them cos you're all there and have a moan about the managers etc. The thing you have in common is work.

Shutting that all down (and there's no way employers would pay to keep offices open just because some people are better off getting onto the office) would stop all that.

I can understand the desire to do it but I do think there would be consequences. As companies would save money though it would probably be seen to be worth it.

I wfh normally, have done for a few years. I sleep longer, have time to make proper meals and use the extra time to socialise with people I actually like. Occasionally I'll work in London for a week or so, and it exhausts me. As in falling asleep on the sofa as soon as I get in. I think people have got used to the exhaustion, but the way a lot of us work isn't at all good for us. A really good example is that post-lunch slump – you're not just full from lunch; your body's natural rhythm is telling you it's time for a bit of downtime or a light nap. But instead we push through which only adds to the exhaustion!

I would love to see a shift in how office-based jobs operate. It's utter madness that we cram on to packed trains to sit and stare at a screen in an office.

This argument that humans don't need social interaction, relationships, that sitting in a cafe with some strangers is a fine substitute for being in a bustling town/ city with lots going on is something I can't understand.

I suppose we're all different and that's the point. Swinging too far away from having these real life networks of friends colleagues etc isn't good either though in my view, although obviously that's just now I feel.

Thumbs up from most on the thread.

I do agree to an extent and I work from home 95% of the time (if not more) but I am now 46 with an establish family and social network in my home town. When I was 23 and straight out of uni and in a new job, it would have killed me working from home. My office based job was my job, my social life, my new family all rolled into one - it took time to settle in obviously but it would have been so sad for me to have had to work from home.

I also hate Teams meetings (the Zoom equivalent or whatever that our company work). Life is so much easier face-to-face. And I say all this as someone who doesn't fly because of environmental impact so I am very conscious of the arguments surrounding it.

meeting my friends for lunch, going to the pub after work, dancing, meeting new people, all that stuff

But you would be doing this with friends, not work colleagues.

@BeetrootRocks - I do agree with you (having said both DH and I love working from home). It very much depends on your personality, your circumstances and your home.

Because I made friends when I had DS it's easy, if I were working from home under non-isolation circumstances, to carry on meeting them after 'work' - i.e. arranging to meet up at 4.30pm or 5pm and just walking into town from home. Or to meet up occasionally for a long lunch - like I would in an out of the home office. My sister lives around the corner so I could invite her over for a coffee. So my interactions may not be with people in my office but I'd still be meeting with them.

DH often used to pick DH up from primary school when he did his 5 years working from home as he'd see some of the other parents at the gate and walk back with them. Again it's that social interaction each day. Plus I was a SAHP so we'd always break for a coffee mid morning and have a chat. He would often walk into town at lunch time for errands as that was the same as popping out of the office. So you can get the social interaction under normal circumstances but you do have to be more disciplined to find it and nurture it.

Working from home isn't for everyone but it would be nice to see people who enjoy it be offered the chance. And yes, some people will take advantage. Many don't though and those that do should be dealt with as you would anyone in a business who isn't pulling their weight. People in an office environment can also take advantage, we've all had colleagues who are the masters of the long lunch, or liquid lunch or who seem to disappear before official clocking off time.

It would be preferable simply because of the environmental reasons. There's no counterpoint for that. Things like mental health, there are some people whose MH would improve and others whose would worsen. Its six of one, half a dozen of the other. Not so with the environmental benefits.

And there we have it, collateral damage.

Do people really have space to wfh? Especially for both of a couple in a situation where people weren't getting on with it because of the current situation?
I can't wfh but DH can,does I day a week normally,and is full time at the moment.
We have room - kind of.But his work set up at the moment puts one room in my home out of bounds to me,or alternatively involves him using the family computer,which means on my day off I can't do things in my own home I would otherwise do,either things I want to do or things I need to do.And in normal circumstances my days off are days he would be working.
So great,no commuting for him ( which he is happy about,but he did choose a job that would involve a commute...).
But - I know it sounds whiny,but it's not fair longterm.My job when I'm not furloughed impacts on my life - unavoidable journey in,etc etc.And when I'm not doing my job I can't relax and do what I want in my own home because he is in it,doing his job.
And his employers save money ( not enough space for everyone to be in the office at once so individuals have to provide their own workspace - home)

I suppose a lot of people who are very concerned about the environment rightly say that the human population being so big is an issue and this would be one way of getting rid of some.

We'll see what the impact is of this over the coming months (although I have a feeling it won't be reported on in MSM).

The expectation that workers be present in a workplace even when the job could be done elsewhere does a number on some people's mental health too. They're no more or less important than people whose mental health is damaged by home working.

Is anyone else finding that because of this everything is taking twice as long? A quick run through by someone’s desk becomes an hour long phone call as you try to share screens, the internet drops out, you can’t hear what’s being said etc etc. Wonderful in principle, nightmare in many ways in practice.

So you need balance.

We have flexibility normally and I tend to WFH 1 or 2 days a week.

This all our nothing approach seems extreme.

I also find it a bit, I don't know. To say that people who struggle with MH if they don't get human interaction are well, someone has to be I'll so it might as well be them a bit rough given the circs We're living under at the moment.

I suppose the introverts time has come but is there a need to put the boot in.

@VegetableMunge. That's a good point. There are a lot of parents who get stressed with worries about who's picking the kids up from school, missing stuff at school, trying to juggle work, commute and family for whom working from home would be a god-send. And those who have caring responsibilities for elderly parents or partners with illnesses who are constantly feeling torn between being in work and their caring duties which adds to their stress. Plus some people find the commute an endless drudge that adds to stress levels. Having that little bit of 'give' in their day can help their mental health enormously.

But then you have the people who love the interaction with colleagues or clients, those who enjoy the commuting time, finding it 'unwinding' time and those who would find the isolation just too much.

There will be an impact on MH from this isolation. Just as there is always an impact from the stresses some people feel just coping with all the rush involved with not WFH.

I won't pretend I know the answer although it probably begins with good employers showing the way all of this can be handled sympathetically and having good policies in place that try to adapt to workers needs whenever they can.

Speaking further on balance and collateral, emissions cause illness and death to some people too. Obviously those with severe chest problems aren't exactly having a good time of it at the moment, but after this is all over, if we reduce commuting by a certain amount and thus emissions by whatever percent, you'd expect to see some health benefits from that on a population level.

My organisation encourages WFH. Except that it is a large organisation, and it’s clear that some departments enjoy the flexibility more than others.

You always had to have a reason to do it (i.e the boiler was being serviced, or you had an awkward in the middle of the day medical appointment which meant it wasn’t worth coming in). This did not apply to managers of course who had no one to answer to and just did it.

Now we are all doing it, and of course, it’s all working perfectly well! Presenteeism is unhealthy and breeds resentment. I actually do enjoy going into the office, and I certainly wouldn’t want to WFH all the time, but this has shown that flexibility is key here, and I don’t want it going back to the way it was. I shall be requesting more WFH days without having to make an excuse. We all have laptops, and now I’ve set up a working area at home.

I do appreciate it’s not for everyone, and some people don’t have the space (or discipline), but it should be allowed when and where it can work.

Vegetable Munge are you on the wind up

'speaking of collateral' the damage due to this lock down, will be huge, even aside from Corona.

On flexibility, I'm very lucky. Work are fine with WFH as and when, you just need to put in diary. Also taking an hour or here and there for eg dentist, school assembly, as long as you get your work done. I'm in av male dominated job but the men do it as well, a lot of them, so there isn't this thing some get where women with kids are seen as not pulling weight, which can and does happen in a lot of places I've heard.

So that would be a really good balance but it only works with companies with the means, ability and interest in putting it in place.

If we could all work more flexibly it would spread commutes as well and as per my PP I think encouraging people out of cars and onto good public transport as much as poss would be really good. The govt have just produced a plan which has taken many people aback with this aim. Apparently the first plan to mention car reduction since the 90s and a real surprise from this govt! Only issue people have is air travel not being addressed as much as it could/ should be. So that is good news, if it comes to fruition, or at least better than where we are now.

I agree. My boss has a bad attitude about WFH as she thinks it’s a doss, so I waste 45 minutes either side of my day commuting/causing pollution and getting stressed.

I couldn’t work from home every day, I need to attend 2/3 days a week to do printing collect files and post papers out etc but it’s definitely not necessary to attend the office everyday.

It’d be great but it is harder seeing it in practise. A whole day of VC