Parents refusing help

[PensionProblem]

On Friday DF text me that he had received an official letter from his state pension provider from abroad requesting him to pay tax, and asked me to help with it. It turned out that this was the second letter they had sent him as he did not follow the instructions of the first letter to provide evidence of why he should not pay tax (he sent them an email in English telling them he is poor, instead of filling in the required forms etc in the local language). In order to help him I needed to ask some questions and as soon as we got to a challenging one, he told me to leave the matter, he didn't want my help and he will sort it out.

The problem is that he does not have the ability to sort it and the default position is that he will have to pay thousands of pounds in tax, which will leave him destitute. He will not know what to do to get an exemption because he barely speaks the local language whereas I am fluent in it, and he's already demonstrated by how he responded to the first letter that he can't do it. Would I be unreasonable to let him get on with it rather than force myself into his business?

As background, my parents have always made poor decisions which has resulted in lost money, and when I have tried to help them they have hugely distrusted anything I have done for them even though there is no reason to (think screaming at me that I am trying to do something bad to them by asking them questions about their income when helping them with applying for benefits). I feel like I don't see why I should keep putting myself in this situation but at the same time i don't want to see them struggling to buy food because they have a massive bill to pay as a result of their incompetence.

Well he has texted you and asked for your help following the second letter. Maybe you can give him another chance is he agrees to some "terms of engagement " involving him not shouting or swearing at you and not shooting you as the messager when you go through questions with him? Do you have any siblings that can help? Where does your mother stand on this?

Sorry I wasn't clear. He asked for my help with the second letter, I asked some questions and he then decided he didn't want my help. My mother is the one who really distrusts me so I suspect she is the one who has said to stop involving me. I'm an only child. If it all goes wrong, my mum will scream at my dad that it is all his fault, and I don't want him to be in this position.

Fuck it, you've offered to help, they've declined, leave it there.

Why doesn't your mother trust you? It's an odd thing to hear someone say about a relationship with a parent?

Weird that she doesn't trust you, have you asked her why. Of all the people in the world you think she would trust her only child.
Can you contact the officials that send the letters and tell them they are unable to fill in and respond as they don't speak the languge well and refuse help.

Sorry I misread and thanks for clarifying. In general agree with Cornish. You can't help them if they don't accept your help. However: will you feel obliged to help them financially if / when their decision not to engage / to refuse your help with paperwork leaves them destitute in the future? Do they have capacity to understand consequences of their actions?

Leave them to it OP 🌺

How old are your parents?
Could you not contact the state pension provider expressing your concerns and see if it can be simplified for them?

I think that you have no option but to leave them to it & maybe spell out that you cannot help financially with the tax bill that they will get?

It's certainly a confusing situation though.

Pension paid from a country whose language he barely knows (?) & tax also due on it?(or not!)

is there any source of official help that they could access? If they will avoid owing a lot of money could they even pay a professional to help?

Maybe trust is the wrong word. She certainly has no faith in me and I don't know why. It's all sorts of twisted and I don't want to derail the thread, but basically she only listens to anyone who she considers pretty, and I've been told many times that I am ugly. I have fo get DH to tell her things for her to listen.

They have explicitly told me not to contact any officials so I feel I should respect that. They don't have to respond, the default position is that they will have to pay a tax bill for the last 4 years of around £4K, and their annual income is £10k. They only need to get in touch if they want to claim the exemption and follow certain processes for this, but I doubt they know this or understand, as they would have done it when the first letter arrived. The state pension provider has sent them lots of info to help them, even in English, looking up UK government websites for them, but it's still too complicated for my parents.

They have capacity in the sense that they are not old (early 60s and 70s) and don't have dementia. They just don't have the ability. My dad was a hard worker but he didn't pass his GCSEs despite 8 attempts, so this is just too difficult for him. I have helped them financially in the past so if things go wrong, I will feel that I will have to help them at least so they can eat!

I've suggested they get professional help if they don't want me involved but they don't listen to me or professionals (unless they are pretty) and they don't have the money for this.

My dad hasn't lived in the country for over 30 years so has pretty much forgotten the language. DH is from that country and they were hoping FIL (ex lawyer) could write to the authorities and make it go away.

So sorry to see your update. Apart from misogynist they sound completely deluded. Can you get your FIL to phone or text them to explain that he won't be able to sort things for them and strongly advise them to take you up on your kind offer of help?

There is a language barrier between FIL and my parents, they can write simple pleasantries to each other but anything else requires me to translate between them. Getting my FIL involved in the matter would therefore need a three way conversation with me involved, and to be honest, I don't want to involve FIL as I don't want to burden him with this and I don't want to make my parents look delusional in front of him. I still can't help feeling like I'm failing them or feeling bad that this is going to explode in their faces even though it's their fault!

CAB?

You are certainly not failing them! You are coming across as very caring and accepting of their "quirks" and looking out for them. GCSEs or no GCSEs - not being taken seriously because you are not "pretty" is outrageous and really not acceptable whatever the cultural background may be. The connection between actions and consequences is very clear. Have they gotten used to being bailed out by you?

Actually I was considering CAB too. I don't know if they would have the expertise to help him with a foreign matter but if DF works out that he needs certain bits of info from HMRC, maybe CAB can help him with liaising with them.

I haven't bailed them out financially in a long time but they have made some stupid decisions that ultimately destroyed relationships with family members, which you could see would happen from a mile away, and I said my piece once and let them carry on. They do now try and get me to side with them in these matters and speak to those they have offended on their behalf (not to apologise but to defend their actions as acceptable) but I tell them it's a problem they created so they need to sort it out, which they see as my failure to be a good daughter.

Oh they sound more awful the more you post, Op.

Not pretty enough to help, but they'll take your money?

They don't deserve you, Op.

I'd force myself in for my father's sake OP. My mum can be the same way when questions get a bit difficult. She freaks and wants to just not bother. If you think your health can stand up to involving FIL and pushing through I'd do it. I'm sorry your mother is so awful.

There's no doubt in my mind that my mother is awful, what I have mentioned does not even scratch the surface of what she has done to me, and my father has enabled her because he faces the same abuse and can't stand up to her. If I don't help, when it goes wrong my mother will verbally abuse my father that he was an awful husband, didn't earn enough, didn't have a respectable job, made us live in poverty because of his lack of earning power etc (even though she was a housewife all her life so could have done something to help our financial situation). I don't want my father to have to put up with that but at the same time I'm thinking you made your bed, you lie in it.

I really don't want to burden my FIL with this and also want to protect my parents from looking like idiots to him. If my parents keep refusing help and withhold further information from me, I'm not even sure how I can practically force myself into helping them?

"at the same time I'm thinking you made your bed, you lie in it."

I think you need to toughen your resolve & think this more often/strongly!

Also in this instance, help was asked for, given & then refused.

I think send the links to cab or any other organisations and stand well back.
You have offered and been refused. And that refusal involved you not helping financially. Why should you be out of pocket when you were prepared to help

Hello all, I thought I would update this post.

The deadline to submit the application is in 2 weeks. Given the Coronavirus issue and my parents self isolating I asked them how they were getting on. They told me they had already received the bill and it's due for payment in 3 weeks. They had gone to the embassy to ask about this and the embassy had told them that as a rule taxes are due, therefore they would be paying the tax.

I told them that they fall under an exemption category, which they would have found out if they had sorted it like they said they would, so why didn't they - they didn't know what else to do. Why didn't they get the help of a specialist accountant / an organisation who would have explained it to them - they didn't know how to find one. Why didn't they then let me help them - it sounded complicated so they wanted to do it their own way, they couldn't see why the tax office couldn't just accept their previous correspondence because it's clear they don't have much money, and anyway, surely they have translators who can translate their English letter into German.

I explained that they have processes to follow, that there is a form HMRC has to fill in and that's what they need to submit. They accepted that this is what they must do and we're confident that they can get the form to HMRC, have them fill it in and return it to my parents, and my parents post it in for the deadline all within 2 weeks!

They won't accept that the timescales are unrealistic and I suggested that they register online for a Government Gateway Account, where they can download their income and tax records straight away and send it to the tax authorities. They refused to try to register, said it sounds too complicated, and told me to stop helping them - they are going to put their previous letter through Google Translate and send it to authorities.

I am so so upset at their stupid decisions.

I think you've been more than helpful. You're just going to have to tie your money up in an isa.
And direct then to food banks.

Hello,
So this is a German pension being paid to your DF?
Have you seen the DTA? Basically, even if they have to pay tax to Germany, they can then claim foreign tax relief credit from HMRC so that they are not double taxed. They should be doing UK taxes using the self assessment form because the pension is foreign income over £300. I only mention this because they may be more comfortable just paying the German tax and then checking the foreign tax relief box on their U.K. tax returns. It may be the easiest thing to do for them and will still ensure they are not being double taxed.
Text in () are my thoughts....

“Article 17
Pensions, Annuities and Similar Payments

1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 18, pensions, other similar remuneration or annuities arising in a Contracting State (in this case Germany) and paid to a resident of the other Contracting State (in this case U.K.) shall be taxable only in that other State (UK).
2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, payments which are made in accordance with the social insurance legislation of a Contracting State shall be taxable only in that State. (if it’s a German state pension, then its taxable only by Germany)
3. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, such a pension, similar remuneration or annuity arising in a Contracting State which is attributable in whole or in part to contributions which, for more than 15 years in that State, a) did not form part of the taxable income from employment, or b) were tax-deductible, or c) were tax-relieved in some other way shall be taxable only in that State. This paragraph shall not apply if that State does not effectively tax the pension, other similar remuneration or annuity, or if the tax relief was clawed back for any reason, or if the 15 year condition is fulfilled in both Contracting States.
4. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, recurrent or non-recurrent payments made by one of the Contracting States or a political subdivision thereof to a resident of the other Contracting State as compensation for political persecution or for an injury or damage sustained as a result of war (including restitution payments) or of military or civil alternative service or of a crime, a vaccination or a similar event shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State.
5. The term “annuities” means certain amounts payable periodically at stated times, for life or for a specified or ascertainable period of time, under an obligation to make the payments in return for adequate and full consideration in money or money's worth.”

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/734388/2010_Germany-UK_Double_Taxation_Convention_as_amended_by_the_2014_Protocol_-_in_force.pdf

I am sorry you are in such a no win situation, I understand completely what you mean. My DF has rights to a state pension in a foreign country where he worked for 30yrs. But he refuses all my help to apply for it.

Thanks @PlanDeRaccordement, their income is so low that they don't pay tax in the UK so this won't help them

I spoke to my FIL (ex tax lawyer from that country). He said my advice to them has been accurate and it's exactly what they need to follow. I told my parents this and they said for me to butt out because this matter requires "dealing with wisdom". They are so poor they barely have money to eat, this is so upsetting.

Oh, too bad. I am sorry for you.
You’ve tried your best though.