To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

people want a ‘perfect’ baby. They don’t want a child who looks and sounds different and they’re scared of the unknown. Those are the reasons I personally believe people abort but you rarely hear those because people don’t want to be judged as shallow or cause offence.

But why do you think it’s related to appearance issues if no one ever says it is? People with children understand that all children are hard work and that the additional needs of children with DS can be significant. My reason would be the concern of early onset dementia. It has persisted even with better early education and social and community engagement of people with DS, suggesting that it’s an inherent part of the syndrome. I wouldn’t want a middle-aged child with increasing care needs when I was in my 70s.

regarding a baby with downs, people want a ‘perfect’ baby. They don’t want a child who looks and sounds different and they’re scared of the unknown. Those are the reasons I personally believe people abort but you rarely hear those because people don’t want to be judged as shallow or cause offence. Instead you hear about how it wouldn’t be fair on siblings or that they would have health problems etc. Lots of reasons have been given on this thread.

You are putting words in alot of mouths there, this is your opinion only.

DS can be alot more than a mild LD. The fear is more than a less than 'perfect' baby, do you really think 3 forms of screening would take place on the NHS for DS if it was just for the potential for not-perfect?

I would have terminated because I would be afraid the needs of a child with DS woukd be incompatible with my severe ASD DSis. But some women may fear they aren't patient/skilled enough, or just do not wish to make huge sacrifices in their career or personal lives to care for a disabled child. These are legitimate and understandable reasons.

@Meltedicicle people want a healthy baby. I didn't want a baby with multiple hospital trips, surgery's, constant needs and care into my old age.

Thankfully all of mines test came back fine. If T21 or any of the other disabilities showed I would've aborted. Because I've planned a life post my children growing up.

Now that I have three. The first reason would be because of my existing children. Because my love for them is more than anything.

People aren't lying. So your still wrong

people want a ‘perfect’ baby. They don’t want a child who looks and sounds different and they’re scared of the unknown. Those are the reasons I personally believe people abort but you rarely hear those because people don’t want to be judged as shallow or cause offence.

This so offensive to those who care for disabled children. It has FA to do with perfection.

This is just the sort of nonsense people come out with until they are faced with the reality of caring for a disabled child 24/7.

@LaurieMarlow hmmm, ok I do disagree, sorry!

So, regarding the siblings, in what way would it not be fair on them? DD has a younger sister so this reason suggests to me that I shouldn’t have had any more kids after DD. But my girls dote on each other and there’s nothing to suggest it’s not been ‘fair’ on my youngest. Can’t speak for everyone but I’d say that seems true of the families I meet at our support group. It just seems a shit thing to say about a kid that’s not even been born yet because you can’t possibly say that with any certainty.

Regarding health issues, DD is completely healthy as are loads of other kids with Downs. Some have health issues but of varying degrees of severity, many are minor. I’ve seen leukaemia mentioned on here. Heidi had leukaemia but look at her now. Aren’t the cancer stats now that one in two or three of us will get cancer? Those are horrific odds but no one would say, don’t have a child in case they get cancer.

But I agree, no one has to justify themselves but if someone is going to give a reason, I wish it was the true one.

Firstly, nothing and no one is ‘perfect’.

It’s unfair to criticise people for wanting a child with no disabilities or health issues. Of course they do. That’s what society presents to them as the aspiration.

The alternative is almost never discussed. It’s certainly not supported by society. There are many thought-provoking posts on this thread on the impact it makes on people’s lives. And let’s face it, women shoulder a disproportionate amount of the work involved.

Because mummy and daddy could end up being all consumed by the minute to minute care of 1 child.
No extra curricular activities because of care needs.
No holidays. No friends over. Hospital admissions.

Mum and Dad (can end up being just mum alone) could care for the child for the rest of their lives. So no support as a adult and no childcare for grandchildren.

Parents are exhausted and stressed so this will have a negative impact.

@GothamProtector I’m not wrong. You’ve proved my point, you want a perfect baby and you got one. DD is healthy, no medical needs but you would have terminated her so it’s not about health, it’s about you and your perfect life which is fine with me, I understand completely.

@WaitrosesCheapestVodka of course it’s my opinion and I believe I’m right (I’m just referring to Downs when I speak not any other disability).

@SinkGirl I’m not sure what you mean here. Are you disagreeing with me? I do care for a disabled child. I’m talking about aborting for downs only not other disabilities.

I got three perfect babies.
3 x CMPA
1 x Discoed Eczema
Thankfully all mild but if I did get to pick I'd have rather not had them.

But they are prefect. And if DS has been found on any of their scans I would've aborted.

Because I matter as well.

DD is healthy, no medical needs but you would have terminated her so it’s not about health,

You have no way of knowing for sure the extent of the health problems involved when the baby’s in utero. Or the additional needs the child will have.

DD is healthy, no medical needs but you would have terminated her so it’s not about health, it’s about you and your perfect life which is fine with me, I understand completely.

I understand it’s emotive for you, but, as with Heidi, your daughter’s existence is not invalidated by people making different choices for themselves.

@LaurieMarlow that’s true of any child though.

@nolongersurprised it’s not emotive for me. I’m pro-choice. I’m just saying I wish there was more honesty.

Yes. But thanks to advancements in science and pre natal care we can now screen for a number of things.

There's nothing to say that these advancements won't continue and we won't be able to screen for even more b

No. People are honest. You just think there's more to it.

So, regarding the siblings, in what way would it not be fair on them?

It’s rare for even the most high functioning DS person to live entirely independently. Many people worry a lot about the burden of care on their other children when they’re gone.

Very odd assumption to presume that people are dishonest about reasons for terminating.

Not read the thread. But I have a cleft lip and palate. Every day since I was old enough to realise I was different (age 3) I have wanted to die or in better moments would give anything not to have it.

When I had my DD I would have terminated. I couldn't inflict the suffering I have had on anyone. The operations, the bullying, the speech defect, the lack of ability to breathe and the staring. I was buying knickers in primark last week and was subjected to abuse from staff.

Oh and MN. I am not going to top myself. I have professional help.

Melted so if you have a child with DS, and you know lots of other children with DS, you must know children whose health is severely affected. You must know parents who are absolutely on their knees and struggling to cope. You must know what the EHCP process is like, DLA, PIP, social care etc etc. You must know parents who have no other family and are terrified about what will happen to their child when they die.

You must know that your experience is not universal.

How can you say that women only want a perfect baby, knowing all this?

I think a lot of people are missing the point, this isn’t about removing women’s rights to choose to have an abortion for whatever reason. It’s about creating a level playing field whereby all babies regardless of disabilities are able to be aborted up until the same point during pregnancy. So either it should be 24 weeks for all babies or up to full term for all babies.

nolongersurprised it’s not emotive for me. I’m pro-choice. I’m just saying I wish there was more honesty.

I am honest about my reason. DH and I have the personal (hopefully) but definitely the financial resources to look after a child with a disability. But it’s the dementia in middle age at a time when I was aged 70-80 that would worry me the most. I’d worry about who would care for my child when I couldn’t.

How many people with DS in their 50s are capable of independent living and how many maintain that? Who organises their care workers or accommodation? How many live at home? How many siblings take on the care when their parents die?

think a lot of people are missing the point, this isn’t about removing women’s rights to choose to have an abortion for whatever reason. It’s about creating a level playing field whereby all babies regardless of disabilities are able to be aborted up until the same point during pregnancy. So either it should be 24 weeks for all babies or up to full term for all babies.

A) that’s not what is being proposed though

B) the exemption is not there to prevent a level playing field. It’s there for pragmatic and unavoidable reasons, as previously discussed

I hope she wins, but I doubt she will. Equality is what I want.