To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

This campaign seems really disingenuous.

We're talking about a women's right to bodily autonomy and to be able to decide whether she's prepared to spend the rest of her life (and it usually is the mother) as a full-time carer if necessary.

But the campaign seems to centre on not only the unborn foetus' right to be born, but also on random other people's 'right' not to be offended by the notion that strangers might not want to have children who have the same condition.

It doesn't matter whether one woman (or all the parents of DS children) feel having a child with DS is fine - obviously they think that, which is why they made the choice they did. Why are they so intent on taking that choice away from others?

I say this as a parent of 3 disabled DC.

No woman should be forced to have a baby against her will - the suggestion that women's rights should be curtailed in this respect to avoid someone else's hurt feelings is fucking scary.

Babyitsawildworld indeed, the thought of terminating a pregnancy at a late stage is extremely difficult to contemplate.

Even more so if you're actually in this situation, don't you think?

No woman would even consider terminating a pregnancy without giving it serious thought and particularly not if those thoughts had gone round and round her head for months as per late abortion.

24 weeks is pretty arbitary, but as soon as you start conflating pregnancy gestation with 'viability' you're bestowing the right to a legal identity separate from the woman who is carrying you onto a fetus.

You only have to look at some the southern states in the US to see where that leads.

Have a look at the link that I posted above from the BPAS about why women seek late term abortions, then tell me that this stance is 'ideological' rather than rooted in the material needs of women.

The fact they are campaigning for the removal of late term abortions for disabilities, rather than for allowing late term abortions for all, says to me that this is anti abortion rather than anti discrimination.

This. Which is why I'd support the law being extended for all rather than restricted to 24 weeks for all. I think it's the "lesser evil" because I do not believe that women turn around beyond 24 weeks and abort for "fun".

Baby "The reality of what would be involved to 'abort' a 38 week 'fetus' with no medical issues should be looked squarely at."

Yes, agreed. Read the BPAS paper on the reasons why women seek late term abortions, actually engage with the lived reality then tell us all that they've made that decision lightly because they've realised after months of pregnancy that they just don't fancy having a baby.

Also, if the parents of disabled children had more support and a better quality of life, then perhaps people would be more willing to entertain the idea of having a disabled child.

Carer's allowance is a pittance, health and social care are under such great strain that only the parents with the loudest voices tend to get help and SEN education is a joke. So why would anyone want to sign up for that life when they have a choice?

If the government is going to force women to have disabled babies, then they need to support them properly once they do.

Surely it can't be justified past the point of viability for DS? Especially as DS is screened for at 12 weeks. So you'd have another 12 to decide

Both my "12" weeks scans were 15+ weeks. One was too late for the DS fold test. A week later I got bad news from the alternative blood test. A further 5 days to get a second scan.

So pushing close to 17 weeks and a another look at the blood test. An error had given a false result. I got the all clear.

But the thing your forgetting is a woman may be told her baby is high risk for DS at 12 weeks, but at the 20 week scan be told about heart issues. That will need various Ops to fix. That information might push her over the edge to ending it.

Dinosaur I agree and that's what really upsets me about these threads.

The 'ohh, you can't have women terminating pregnancies at 30+weeks' brigade because it's really traumatic and emotional to think about, without contemplating that it's a million times more traumatic to actually think about when you're in that position, let alone actually access health care to actually do.

Sorry but I have to ask again- how often are these very late abortions actually happening?

Almost never.
All these heartless women teminating at 39 weeks don't actually exist.

At most in single figures- in very complex and dire situations.

This is whole shitstorm is designed as a tool to beat up women.

@ColaFreezePop how on earth do you know I don’t? Surely campaigning for better facilities, provision, care and long term support for people with disabilities is the way forward. I don’t know why that’s being thrown at me based on what I said. I didn’t ‘chastise’ anyone.

I honestly can’t see how 38 week ‘abortions’ exist. I can’t wrap my head around how you could ‘abort’ a baby at 38 weeks. Not morally, but physically. If it’s a seriously ill baby, then surely it’s a baby who has died due to a serious illness?

The mum in the news article knew a woman who was offered an abortion at 38 weeks. My points all link to the fact I don’t understand how that is physically possible, unless a baby is withheld care.

@SinkGirl I didn’t. I said I know happy, healthy children born at 24 weeks. I do. It’s anecdotal, but I do. It therefore affects my personal view of abortions at 24 weeks. In the sense, I personally wouldn’t have one. That was the only point I was making. I’m not asking you to share my view. Nor am I judging anyone who does have an abortion at 24 weeks.

I had a termination at 22 weeks because our much wanted and loved son had major abnormalities. As awful as that time was, we were lucky in that:

• it was before that 24 week cutoff and although that meant labour and giving birth, it was still easier than it being later. No-one would chose that situation lightly.
• in our case the abnormalities meant it was obvious he wouldn’t survive so it made the decision quicker and easier

Not everyone is so lucky.

Take DS as an example. Everyone with DS has the same genetic difference and yet the outcomes and prospects for those individuals can be very different. Now apply that to the countless other conditions and disabilities that an unborn baby can be affected by and it just isn’t that easy. The current laws allow for all of the horrific situations most of us can’t comprehend. They allow mothers who don’t want to abort based on a diagnosis but want to monitor their baby’s development to get a better picture of their child’s prospects.

I was lucky that mine was before 24 weeks, but if we’d waited for diagnostic testing, it would not have been. If the laws were changed, the one and only act of love I was ever able to give my son, to limit his suffering as much as I could, would not have been an option. My right to make that decision for my child’s wellbeing is something I would defend with all I have.

Beebie2 it's fine if you would never have a termination at 24 weeks. Absolutely fine, I don't see anyone on this thread suggesting that you should do anything with your pregnancies other than what you choose to do.

How you would physically abort a baby at 38 weeks? The RCOGY guidelines are pretty clear. A live birth is incompatible with the intention of abortion, so the fetal heartbeat is stopped before labour is induced.

Horrifically traumatic for the mother and HCPs involved (the HCPs have a right to opt out of being involved in these procedures).

Surely it can't be justified past the point of viability for DS? Especially as DS is screened for at 12 weeks. So you'd have another 12 to decide

If DS was suspected at 12wks then you'd still need to wait for further testing. Some women may at that point decide to still continue with the pregnancy but then change their mind if the 20wk anomaly scan picks up further problems (e.g., heart condition). Its not as cut and dried as finding out at 12wks.

I agree that a late stage abortion because the baby has a disability is an awful thing and we should try and reduce the numbers of people doing it if we can

In 2018 there were only 289 abortions carried out post-24wks. As per the law, they were all carried out for medical reasons.

The mum in the news article knew a woman who was offered an abortion at 38 weeks

Bit of a friend of a friend thing going on there

She may well have known someone this happened to, but as repeatedly discussed on here abortions at this time are incredibly rare and will not necessarily have been just because the child had DS

Brilliant posts from SinkGirl. I have a child who has autism, 'high' functioning but I would have absolutely terminated had I know beforehand. The impact on our lives due to this has been like a grenade in the sitting room with the family sat in it. He's completely unaware of this, totally oblivious to the unimaginable strain of it all and I consider suicide often.

gingercatspot are you ok?

speakout exactly. The whole premise of this campaign - that women cheerfully go around terminating pregnancies in the third trimester - is phoney.

It hardly ever happens as women who opt for screening/diagnostic tests know much, much earlier in pregnancy.

Aber9

sinkgirl and gingercatspots couldn't read your posts and not respond.

I'm so sorry that things are so difficult for you. I wish care and support for people with disabilities and their carers were so much better.

Wishing you both more peaceful days ahead.

I am strongly against abortion beyond 24 weeks for any reason other than if the child will not survive birth or will die shortly afterwards.
Heidi is fabulous and I know a lot of families with DS children who are all loved and valued.

My right to make that decision for my child’s wellbeing is something I would defend with all I have.

There are lots us here who will defend it alongside you.

Your son knew only love and kindness for his entire life, we should all hope to be so fortunate

bobisbored that's great. You need never have an abortion beyond 24 weeks. I support you fully with that choice.

I also know families with DS children who are loved and valued.

So women should be able to make their own choices about their pregnancy and love the children that they do have.

Yes, couldn't agree more.

I have a disabled child, if I knew when pregnant what I know now, no matter how late on - for whatever reason - I wouldn’t have progressed with the pregnancy.

My child is 13 & has said themselves- why would anyone knowingly have a baby with these complications?

@Bflatmajorsharp thanks. You’ve answered my question. That is what I did not understand. My horror was that a baby would be born, and left to die.

I know it’s completely my choice. That was my point. I didn’t understand the concept of late term abortion. It became a slightly long winded, laboured point as someone continued to probe me on it.

@Rufus the thread is about the news article at the beginning in the OP. That was what I thought we were discussing.

I agree with Heidi. The time limit should be the same for a foetus with Downs and other non fatal conditions as it is for any other foetus But I have a sibling with Downs so I find it a very emotive subject

Baby the point is that, in cases where serious anomalies are picked up at the 20 week scan (lets remember that this is the entire point of the 20 week scan - to detect any of a series of anomalies that can be detected at this stage of pregnancy and not sooner), the legal limit of 24 weeks does not give sufficient time for testing to occur, results to come back, diagnoses to be confirmed and parents to have counselling, make a decision and then actually book the procedure and have it done. That’s the reality of the situation. No woman of sound mind and good health is deciding to leave it until she’s full term to abort, this does not happen.

If the argument is that this discriminates against disabled people, then the only logical change is to extend the legal limit for all abortions because otherwise you are removing this crucial option from women who are facing the prospect of continuing a pregnancy where they know the foetus cannot survive outside of the womb for up to 3 further months, delivering and watching the baby die. Or spending those three months waiting for the baby to die. Or spending the rest of their lives caring for a severely disabled child with no quality of life, and worrying about what will happen to their child when they die.

Personally I don’t think the limit for abortions for non medical reasons should be extended. I don’t think there’s any need, since it is sufficient time for most to make a decision and make arrangements. However, I would rather that the legal limit were extended for all pregnancies than the exemption removed.

In reality, no woman with a healthy baby and who is physically and mentally healthy herself is going to choose to delay abortion past 24 weeks - it’s an horrific thing to go through, so much so that even if it were legal for any woman to terminate a healthy pregnancy at 38 or 39 weeks, it simply would not happen.

This idea that the law needs to change because there are numerous women aborting babies with DS at full term is simply a fiction - if you want to talk about ideological arguments, let’s start there.

Heidi's value and women's abortion rights are two completely separate issues.

To conflate the two is utterly disingenuous.