to think it isn't normal behaviour for a 4 year old it's naughty!

[Needtochangemymindset]

Had a hard day today with my 4 almost 5 year old. Im usually good at keeping it together but I ended up shouting several times. Each time she was asked to do something e.g. colouring at the table not on the sofa she shouted 'no I won't at me' and when I eventually lost my temper she put her hands over her ears, mimicked me and then either stuck out her tongue or blew raspberries at me.

DH says normal I say needs firmer discipline.

Please help!

Yes for normal behaviour
No for needs firmer discipline

Not normal for mine but certainly we have little friends who were sassy. Temperament and copying others probably drives this. I’m with your dh, more effective consequences are needed.

Not normal for my two
Perhaps normal for others

Going through similar defiance issues with DS at the moment (turns 4 at the beginning of March). He's only just started speaking properly in the past few months, and I was all psyched up for that making behaviour management easier. His current thing is 'too hard' every time I ask him to do anything he doesn't want. He's also really cut down on the foods he will eat, wasting the majority of his meals, then taking every opportunity to take food from the pantry, so he's then got no incentive to eat other foods, as he's filled up on things he's taken.
No practical advice at all, but you have my sympathy

I write as the parent of a 12-year-old and a just turned four. My DD1 was an absolute dream until the age of 11 (because hormones and high school) and DD2 has been hard work since birth! At school, DD1 has a reputation for being extremely polite, well mannered and well behaved. It’s a relief that she saves the horrible behaviour for me at home because home is her safe place and she is in a very pressured environment at a high-achieving Grammar school so the expectations are mega.

DD2, who turned four a week ago, but is the height of an average 7-year-old, is a strong personality and will test EVERY boundary and every adult she encounters to the nth degree. Because she’s smart and she’s worked out she can. She is bulletproof and not easily shamed or manipulated so I have to think 37 steps ahead of her to try to manage her behaviour.

Honestly, all kids have a really shitty phase, be it the terrible twos or the twatty threes or the fucking fours. None of them is a Perfect Peter, regardless of what you may read here.

And even if their misguided parents believe that is the case, the other parents in the school playground will absolutely know the truth.

Good luck, OP, full-time school won’t be too far away! You are not alone.

Natural consequences are, in my experience, the only really reliable discipline tool.

Won't pack away colouring? Sounds like you aren't a big enough girl to be allowed to colour. I'm taking the colouring away for the rest of the week and we will try again on Monday.

Screaming face off? Must be tired. Bedtime at 2pm.

Being mean and nasty? Clearly want to upset Mummy, I am going to remove myself then, I don't want to spend time with someone who is mean to me. (Usually means I just take myself off to make a cup of tea and calm down).

Shouting etc. never works

Not at all normal for my two. Seems I'm in the minority, but I'd be gobsmacked if mine behaved ike that.

It all sounds like it's specifically designed to get a reaction from you! You should discipline her in a calm detached sort of way but absolutely don't get sucked into shouting/getting angry with her as its a cycle of attention seeking I think. My 6yo is very like this (not these behaviours, but others that are exactly what winds me up) and as soon as she gets a sniff of me getting annoyed it all escalates.

Its not something that i would discipline a kid about

Yes it's normal, I had it with my eldest who is nearly 6 now. Luckily it appeared to be a bit of phase. It tends to happen occasionally now if he is very tired.
We know it's 'naughty' behaviour and its not acceptable, doesn't stop it happening though does it OP, and it is very very frustrating. I still disciplined him though he didnt get away with it.

I made a thread a few weeks ago about my 4 year old.
The general consensus was that 4 year olds are arseholes

Completely agree with @Moominmammaatsea !!

@HerRoyalCarbyLess - I still chuckle at some of the things I read on your thread !!

Elizadoeslittle19
It did amuse me

Op it really is one of those things. Kids are twats at times. You just have to grit your teeth and get through it. And savour all the little moments where you see a glimpse of a decent human shine through

My advice is don’t get into a “to and fro” with her - it sounds like she knows how to push your buttons and you are responding I exactly the way she likes!

Give her a warning and tell her what her punishment will be ie if you don’t sit at the table the pens are going away for the evening. Then if she continues follow it thorough - don’t discuss it with her. Next day repeat. She’ll soon get the message!

Normal boundary-pushing behaviour. Can happen at any age, some seem to go through it more than others in short bursts as they age, in my experience.

Shouting never worked. It happens, we all have our limits.
Then it depends on the child. One of mine I really couldn't do time out with, it was a reward. Another taking away the item, and it wasn't a big deal. I would have had to confiscate everything.

What I found effective was ignoring it. Didn't react at all and carried on. doing whatever it was I was doing.
Then at some point in the day, when relaxed we would have a talk about raspberries and other people, and some people think it's cheeky and really rude. It is cheeky, and I also talked about when it's okay to be a bit cheeky. People aren't always going to like the same things as you.

It is normal.
She's a bit sassy already! 😂 it makes me laugh some of the stuff they come out with! Not funny at the time of course it's like talking to a brick wall!

Forgot to also mention that they would either naturally do whatever was asked because they have thought about it.
Or, in this boundary-pushing stage they ask you to do something. And we'd talk about doing things for each other. Whilst my brain was cracking up laughing at the cheek!

We use 123 Magic with DS. It works well because it keeps me calm (because there's a plan) and he knows exactly what's going to happen when I get to 3. He's 4.5yo and we've used 123 Magic since he was about 3. Took a while to understand that I would do the consequence and he started off testing me (so be very careful that you only state a consequence you can and will follow through on). Now, he usually does what I ask by 2.

I could imagine my nearly 4 year old doing that on a bad day. She is as good as gold for everyone else but let’s it out on me when she’s tired. She gets like a stroppy teenager. We sometimes have tears, door slamming etc. I find it really hard not to shout at her but I know the days she gets stroppy it is a tiredness thing and she needs more attention and sleep really.

You’ll know if it was out of character for your child versus a one-off and whether there were triggers for it. My other child is only a baby but already I can see they have quite different personalities. My first is very headstrong, independent and determined. Everything has always been quite heightened and I think sometimes she is treated as being older than she is and it all gets a bit much and she sort of implodes. My second is much more cautious relaxed and laid back and happy to be a baby in a way my first never was. I’ll be interested to see how that pans out as she grows up but I’d place money on her being less of a drama llama.

I'd rather have them. doing all this stuff at home for the first time. I have an autistic child, and the number of times he did this in public, for the first time ever, was often mortifying or embarrassing. But, there were rays of sunshine when it was often bloody funny for everyone.

Think of the most embarrassing thing for your child to do in public, and he would have done it. He's in his 20's now, and still does it haha

I think my 3yo dd is Keyser Soze. She’d rather throw all her own things in the bin than let me have anything over her. She shows no weakness at all.

I've found it improved at 5/6 yrs.4 is a bastard of an age

My almost four year old likes to say "OK Boomer" when I tell him to stop things. Thanks DS1.

I was going to spout about limiting options and distracting but I'm not really a discipline parent due to autism. It's all risk management and trying to avoid injury. Colouring quietly anywhere is a WIN in this house.

I think theres a couple of issues at play.

I think at 4 its age apprppiate to be wanting more independence and seeing what happens ig they want different things to you

I also think naughty steps etc are pointless and become a power play and of course it can just end up in standoff and what really is the child learning by that? They're backed into a corner so "well that's what I wanted anyway" isnt them being rude but trying to come to terms with a situation out of their control.

I heard a fab talk about power and attention buckets - where both need filling each day. Attention is self explanatory and lack of attention leads to attention seeking behaviour - solution positive attention at other times of the day, play, 1-1 time, perhaps praise, noticing the good things etx.
Power was more interesting. Loooking at power battles and a child's growing need for independence. After all our goal is they grafually are more and more independent.
So - give them increasing power where you can in the day. Choices (red or blue trousers/which road to school/pick a vegeravle you'd like for dinner) where you're happy eith either answer. Helping you with jobs in the house. Time where they're not constantly being told what to do - think all fay at school they ahve to do exactly what they're told all the time. If we're hen shoutung 101 demands it can be overwhelming - so some time wih genuine free play and the childs choice of play...

So increasing the childs power in other areas, maybe picking your battles so you dont battle so much. What really does matter?

And if yiu use consequences they ahve to seem fair to the child or they dont learn from them. Dont punish just to make yourself feel better. Having to go and sit somewhere else rarely makes sense and builds into a battle of wills or builds resentment - saying we draw on paper not the sofa, gettign them to help clean the sofa, talking about why we need to draw on paper, drawing on paper with them and chatting would all be natural ways to handle it. And if that doesnt work only having pens out when they can be supervised until theyre older. Not apportioning blame and shame but helping to learn together.

I love the books "how to talk so your kid is listening and listenign so your kids can talk" series. Also some of the positive parenting is great.

Apologies that was longer than I meant it ti be