To think Nursing is one of the hardest degrees?

[UndertheCedartree]

I did a nursing degree as a 2nd degree as a mature student. I actually felt sorry for the 18 year olds starting it as they didn't get the usual Uni experience. No Freshers - as we'd already started a few weeks before and were in back to back lectures/classes. Social life was limited due to work load and placements with early starts and long hours.

I found it very stressful. Long hours in Uni due to hours needed to pass the professional qualification. Half the time spent working full time while having to write assignments and study for exams. Also the OSCEs (practical exam) and VIVAs (oral exam) that were so different to anything I'd done before.

So AIBU than Nursing is one of the hardest degrees?

To people who say doctors need to know anatomy and physiology what do you think nurses need to know?

Exactly! I'm half way through year 3 and yes, it is very challenging academically, the level of scientific knowledge is very high, as is the requirement to understand and evaluate research to a very high level. You are warned at interview that the course is incredibly challenging, and the dropout rate is high.

Some very clueless comments on here ie, about nursing colleagues not having much knowledge - not all current nurses will have degrees for a start, but I still bet they have a lot more knowledge than they are given credit for.

With regards to the necessity of doing a masters - in nursing I think it is a necessity if you want to progress to a role that will pay a half decent wage.

And yes, nurses certainly do not work under doctors orders anymore, as a PP said, we are colleagues, and some specialist nurses will work at a higher level than some doctors.

I don't know if it is the hardest degree, but it is bloody hard, and I am used to hard work and have a previous science degree that I found much easier. Balancing academic work, 12.5 hour shifts on placement, having to work part time to as well and perhaps bring up a family (as many do) - try it before you say it's not that hard. It is incredibly challenging, financially, emotionally and academically.

The criteria for academic rigour is that it is, well, academically rigorous.

Which is sort of the problem. People are pushed into seeing academic qualifications as being the evidence of accomplishment, but what they want to accomplish isn’t necessarily academic.

Why are so many people funnelled into a Masters, when a postgraduate certificate would often be more rewarding and teach you more?

Unless you are going into research, why go through the misery of a masters?

Probably because more and more jobs are requiring them or seeing them as more worthy of respect, even though there’s often no need.

There have been posters on here saying a nurse has to do xyz academic thing and be compassionate. Well yes, but academia isn’t there to measure compassion.

And a poster saying nurses do an academic job. No, academics do an academic job. There are nurses who are also academics, but most nurses are not.

Not every accomplishment in life is about academia, and sometimes it seems like a bit of a money making scam.

@PointlessAddict - you've not really read the thread have you? If you do I have answered your question many times over? I did my nursing degree some time ago - I couldn't care less if you think it was harder than anyone elses- why would I?!

I think it's definitely physically tougher than most - as well as studying you have placements, so you get less sleep as well as doing more contact hours. Add to that the need to work PT and it's really hard going.

Academically speaking - it's not as tough as, e.g. maths, engineering, physics etc. at a top university, but is the equivalent of the above at a medium-tier university despite what alumni might claim.

So in general - YANBU, because it's academically rigorous as well as being physically exhausting.

know plenty of people who have done it who wouldn’t have the academic credentials required to do my degree.

Yes, and I bet many of those with the academic credentials required to do your degree would not have the many personal qualities required to do a nursing degree.

Unless you are going into research, why go through the misery of a masters?

Because it is a requirement if you want to progress to more senior nursing roles, and earn a wage that you can actually live on.

@PooWillyBumBum - there are always a certain number of students ending up on the psychiatric acute unit during the course and then after qualifying too. I myself also have experience of mental health issues during my career.

Exactly. But why has it been set up that way? Why should a nurse need a masters rather than a postgraduate certificate?

@bobbypinseverywhere - it depends on the patient. Those in hospital will have a named consultant but she won't see them unless I ask her too. So yes, some see a consultant. There is a junior doctor on my team that I might ask to see patients in the community but most don't see a doctor. I don't know hpw it works in all departments, though.

@todayisnottuesday please explain how some nurses work “at a higher level than doctors?” I presume you just mean junior doctors? As I mentioned before, even nurses who are independent prescribers or ‘nurse consultants’, the patient will still ultimately be under a medical consultant doctor who altho may not be involved wit day to day decisions, would have final legal responsibility.

I was younger, yes! But nursing is very much about problem solving as well as learning facts.

Yes I am aware of that. I was trying to show that medical degrees (including nursing, medicine, dentistry, veterinary medicine etc...) require a lot of memorising and the ability to store and recall lots of information. Mathematics (like physics) doesn’t. And that you might not find that easy, whereas you clearly found maths easier. I’m not nursing degree bashing. Like I said all degrees are hard.

Why should a nurse need a masters rather than a postgraduate certificate?

Because a masters level education is required in order to learn the amount of knowledge required for some nurse specialist roles. Look at the academic level and responsibility associated with a nurse anaesthetist role for example - that could not be covered by a post grad certificate.

@Jess827 - sounds tough.

@UndertheCedartree but my point is legally that named consultant will have the ultimate responsibility when shit hits the fan, even if she’s never met the patient. She will have some degree of responsibility of overseeing your care.

please explain how some nurses work “at a higher level than doctors?” I presume you just mean junior doctors?

Yes, I do mean 'just' junior doctors - which is why I actually said 'some nurses work at a higher level than SOME doctors. And in most wards, it is nearly always junior doctors we are working alongside every day - we barely see those working at a higher level.

‘Because a masters level education is required in order to learn the amount of knowledge required for some nurse specialist roles. Look at the academic level and responsibility associated with a nurse anaesthetist role for example - that could not be covered by a post grad certificate.’

You don’t gain more knowledge on a Masters degree than on a postgraduate certificate. The difference between the two is that for a masters you must complete a significant piece of research or other original work, usually in the form of a dissertation or project. The taught module component of masters and other postgraduate qualifications are of exactly the same level.

but my point is legally that named consultant will have the ultimate responsibility when shit hits the fan,

Even if so, what difference does that make, the nurse involved would be legally and professionally accountable for any aspect of patient care they were responsible for at the time. If we mess up, we get the repercussions of that, not the doctor the patient is under the care of. Doctors are not accountable for the nurses caring for their patients.

@Chestnut23 - it depends on the Uni - mine was BBB but some are lower.

@maleficent7 - not career one-upmanship but degree-one-upmanship! Some have certainly seen it as a competition and felt rather threatened!

Having not done all the degrees, I couldn’t possibly comment......

@bobbypinseverywhere - no not atall. The consultant or SHO does not oversee my work. I have a seperate line manager. We are colleagues and work together. I am legally responsible for all my work - that's why nurses have a pin.

Look at the academic level and responsibility associated with a nurse anaesthetist role for example - that could not be covered by a post grad certificate.

Nurse aneasthetist is an american specialism is it not? I searched the role.on nhs jobs and they were band 5 or 6 and asked for a nursing degree or an ODP qualification... none asked for masters.

The university of derby are offering an aneasthia practitioner course as distance learning at undergraduate level that prepares people to be anesthetic nurse though.

The difference between the two is that for a masters you must complete a significant piece of research or other original work, usually in the form of a dissertation or project

If you look at the NMC requirements for current and future nursing degrees (under and post grad) you will see that there is a huge requirement for nurses to be highly proficient in all elements of nursing research. This is because nurses (like doctors) now need to practice evidence based care, and work in line with the best available current evidence. In order to do that, they need know how to evaluate research to a very high standard. At higher levels, they need to also be able to conduct research.

@Nameofchanges - well we are always told how important it is for nurses to do research as we follow evidence based practice.

Surely modules teach you how to evaluate research. That’s usually one of the main learning outcomes of postgraduate module design.