So do I let me 16 year old decide where to study for A levels?

[Oakmaiden]

Thing is, as a "on principle" question of course she should decide what subjects to study and where to study them. However.

She is a bright girl, predicted As and A*s for GCSEs (in Wales so still letter grades). However, she does no revision, no homework and her attendance is very poor. She hates her secondary school, and will think of every reason to not go in. She struggles socially (being assessed for Autism) and with low mood. After school she dances, sings and does drama - which she is very committed to. She probably spends around 16 hours in an average week at class. Most weeks there is something extra, so she does more.

She insists that she is going to stay at her secondary school and do A levels. I can't understand it, as she has been so unhappy there. To start with she was going to do A levels in Drama, Dance and Music - with English lit at her 4th for the first year. I asked her to look at a couple of other colleges - she looked at one with a very highly regarded Performing Arts course, but decided that she didn't want to spend all day doing Musical Theatre and then come home to do all her dance lessons. We left it at that.

Only now her school have said there is not enough interest to run either the dance or music A level courses. She is determined that, despite this, she is still staying there. Her latest plan is to do Drama, Literature,Physics and Welsh. Which is random, as previously she said she hated learning Welsh and hated science. She wants to be a stage or film director, with dance teacher as her backup career choice.

I can just see it going very badly if she is going to a school in which she is very unhappy and doing subjects in which she has no interest, just because (I think) she doesn't much like change.

AIBU to put my foot down and say "Actually you don't have free choice - you are still a child and you get to choose from the options I agree with - and this is not one of them."? Or should I just let her make her own mistakes?

Me? Me? Do I let me 16 year old??? My, obviously.

Is her current school closer to home than the alternatives?

what are the alternatives to her current school? if is is anxious (and possibly autistic) she might be afraid of change?

can you take her on tours of the alternatives and talk them up. i.e. do a bit of propaganda to bring her to your way of thinking, rather than directly imposing on her.

Most of the children in the city go to the local college, which is a bus ride away (she could walk to school, but I give her a lift because that way she actually goes. Mostly.) It offers a full range of A levels, including all the ones she initially wanted. Also has a performing arts BTEC. The very good Performing arts course is a train ride away, really.

There are several other schools who offer A levels - one of which is close enough to walk to - but I doubt any of them would be more likely to do her preferred A levels.

I have been trying to be all cool and let her choose herself, but I am so worried it is going to end up going badly...

We have been to look around the further away college - she said it was better than she expected, but still no... She refuses to even look at anywhere else.

Physics is not an a level to be taken on a whim, and I would have thought they wouldn't let her take it without taking maths too anyway.

Clearly remaining at school is not a great plan and if she is only just being assessed for autism that is a heck of alot to take in. I'm not sure how it works now with complusary 16+ education but is there an option for her to take a year out, concentrate on the dance etc and get the diagnosis sorted and the help she needs in place.

Normally I am fully in support of the child’s choice but here it does seem like she is making one which will actual mean she doesn’t get to study her favourite subjects.
Also would her school let her return if her attendance is poor? Everywhere I would work would have seriously discouraged it.

I came on to say you were being unreasonable but actually you’re totally right. She is taking the wrong option because she is scared of change.

Tricky one!

Can you persuade her to go and look around some of the other colleges?

And/or can you tell her that if she wants to stay at her current school she needs to prove it by knuckling down and showing that she's working?

What is she like socially? Does she have friends at school? Would she find it extremely difficult to make friends and a new place? If so I can see why it might be very scary for her.

She could probably cope with the maths content of physics - she is doing Additional Maths as well as her Mathematics and Numeracy GCSEs this year (and got an A* for the GCSE physics paper she has taken) but I don't think she has the commitment. Or indeed the interest. She did no revision for ANY of the papers she has taken so far. I don't think she understands how big a jump it is from GCSE to A level though.

Her school are supportive of her coming back despite her poor attendance - they do understand the reasons for it (she is struggling with her mental health/self harm/etc).

She considers that she only has one friend at her current school. This isn't completely true - she has very high expectations of friends though, so to be awarded the title of "friend" is quite an accolade, but I think there are a few more people who are friendly acquaintances, is not confidantes...

Interestingly, because we live in Wales I don't think we have the rule that you have to be in education or whatever after the age of 16. I have wondered about her taking time out, but am not sure if it would benefit her or not.

Maybe the answer is to let her try, and when she finds out it is not at all what she expected to let her try something hopefully better suited to her next year...

My personal feeling is that a performing arts course would be perfect for her. She is totally obsessed by Musical Theatre, and she would be surrounded by people who would consider that obsession normal and not utterly weird. It would be an automatic "something in common".

It sounds like her possible autism is impacting on her ability to accept the possibility of change?

I'd contact the other schools and see if her preferred options would actually be available. If so, see if she'll go on a tour, and talk them up if they look good?

Ultimately you can't force her to go elsewhere, but I would certainly be concerned too.

Forgot to add - assuming she's likely to want to go to university, then sit down and check out some plausible courses and their entry requirements - for instance, does a musical theatre degree require A Level music? Look at a variety of institutions as requirements do vary

do go from school to a specialist college maybe a bit too scary though.... although you can see she would fit in more , she maybe thinking it will be full of 'experts' and very pressured.... I would try again with doing the A levels she wants at the local college - maybe print out the different subject specifications and leaving them with her - whilst offering to take her for more look arounds (maybe talk to teh college for advice)
(my goddaughter has ASD and her mum often has to approach things obliquley (sp) ).... as any pressure or feeling of pressure makes things worse...
however if her school is willing for her to try then maybe she tries there and if it doesnt work out try something else ... she is only 16 ... get her through gcse's the next phase of education is much more flexible......
funding for college counts until 19 ... she can do btec/a level . take another year.... maybe let her feel more in control is a better but confident she has your backing and a couple options (too many can be overwhelming)

Most people with autism needs routine and dislike change, they
Also fail to see the "big" picture or future consequences so the need to keep routine and avoid change will override her need to do something she wants to do, because the "wants to do" is change and the the school is a lack of change and the same routine.
Sometimes you have to force the issue my sons are like this and deep down they want the alternative they just can't make the leap.

Also when you add in OCD, anxiety, travel, public transport, strangers, noise (musical theatre is noise my son is a brilliant actor but he hate the noise of rehearsal so either he doesn't do it or he has to rehearse away from others which is pretty difficult to do for everyone else, it has been done for him but it's not ideal) and a million other things she will need to deal with with a change you can start to see why she would refuse. People with autism also struggle with choice and find it difficult to do and worry they have somehow made the "wrong" one so sticking with her current path removes this. Also she may not have friends but the people are familiar to her college will be strangers again another change.
if I actually get them in a car just driving to the place I want them to go it can be a bank holiday night but just to familiarise them with the journey the place, look on websites, contact for a look round request when it won't be busy.
Break down each problem. She will resist because the very act of doing this will be a stress but keep at it.

Sorry please feel free to add your own punctuation I am in the middle of trying to get 2 autistic teens to school 😅

School isn't compulsory after 16 in Wales. Not that I'm saying she should drop out, but just that if she starts the year and is finding it difficult as you predict, she could start the process again the following year I suppose?

You're right that staying at her secondary school seems like the wrong choice. However, 'you're a child and I'm deciding for you' isn't the way to deal with a 16-year-old's educational options, not least because if you do it that way and things go badly at the new college, she'll be blaming you for it for the rest of her life.

I was a lot like your daughter at that age - bright but didn't attend much or do homework, undiagnosed ASD, self-harm. I left school, which I hated, at 16. I had the option to go to college but didn't. Reasons why, which I couldn't articulate at the time, included a long rush-hour commute (sensory nightmare, would lengthen the day significantly when I was already exhausted after school), dealing with entirely new people who didn't know me, and an isolated comment someone had made to me that 'at any other school you'd get bullied much worse' which I took incredibly literally.

For me, leaving at 16 was the right decision, because I needed time to focus on my mental health away from the school environment (which was the main reason it was so poor). I don't know if that's true for your daughter. I do know that if she feels she's being forced to go somewhere, whether or not it's objectively the 'right' decision, she's unlikely to do well. If she doesn't want to or can't leave education, it'd really be worth exploring the reasons why she wants to stay at her current school in more depth, and her fears about going elsewhere. Help her to see what you see, but by reaching that conclusion herself.

I think it's unrealistic to think that attendance or enjoyment will necessarily improve at a school that doesn't know her and support her.

Some very good points, thank you all for taking the time to post.

It is so very hard balancing what would be "the best thing" for another child in her situation with what she can cope with and what will make her happy. And I really need to keep in mind that her happiness has to be paramount here - she can do her Plan B (dance teacher) with no college based qualifications at all - just ones from the dance boards, which she has already started studying for.

I am feeling less stressed about it now I have read through all your responses, and that is good because she can tell when I am stressing about something and it automatically engages her "stubborn mode".

What would happen if she started at her current school, and after a year changed her mind? In England she could 'restart' somewhere else and spend 3 years over 6th form. Is that the same for you?

Can she apply for multiple places ('because what's the harm') and then go to taster days after GCSEs ('because what's the harm') and then only formally decide after GCSEs come out? That way you are keeping options open and maybe over the summer when she is less worried about GCSEs she may review her thinking.

Is there any helpful careers guidance from the school? Could they persuade her that staying on wouldn't actually be good for her?

Are there any musical theatre groups she can join.......be influenced by the tutor......?

One thing you may not have considered, the reason that she is keen to stay at the school for A Levels. Could it be that somebody or some people who are causing her not to enjoy school now will be leaving and this would make her time there better?
Please let her be part of the decision making about her future. My mum made me go to an upper school that I HATED and I'm not sure I've ever really forgiven her for that. My friends from middle school went to another school and I had to go to one where I ended up being bullied for 3 years. My friends all did really well in their academic lives, I did not.
I was definitely mature enough to make the decision about where I wanted to go to school, my mum just wouldn't listen to me. It's your daughter's future that is at stake here. Yes, she may regret that decision, but, ultimately, it's her decision to make.

Have you told her that she wouldn't have to take dancing lessons after school, if her school day contained dancing lessons (as part of the Performing Arts course)?

My son stayed on at his school for A levels, despite them dropping the one he really wanted to do. There was a brilliant college in a different town that offered everything, but meant he'd have had to catch a bus at 7.15. I let him choose and he chose the lazier easier option of staying put. I'd say it's not working out amazingly well. He's going and he's happy in himself and he's excelling in one subject. But he's a bit down by the others.

I'd keep on trying to sell it to her.

Have you told her that she wouldn't have to take dancing lessons after school, if her school day contained dancing lessons (as part of the Performing Arts course)?

Hah! The thought of trying to stop her going to her after school dance classes! That would cause a mutiny! She absolutely loves it.

She currently takes 5 ballet classes, 2 modern, 1 tap, 1 jazz, 1 hip hop and 1 acro (as well as being assistant teacher in a ballet class) every week. She also has a group and a solo singing lesson with her dance school, and a LAMDA drama lesson. She is also part of a Stage School, which is an hour and a half per week, but has lead to membership of their "elite" musical theatre group and their "elite" acting company, each of which take a full day every month, plus occasional performances etc. She also gets lots of workshop opportunities from them. I can't say she is entirely wrong to say that the specific training she is getting now is probably as good as she might get in a BTEC performing arts course, although obviously the focus is different.

Interesting thought. She does so much after school that it is close to another full time training. Maybe we should look at her doing just 2 A levels at school bearing that in mind. The UCAS points required for most undergraduate courses she would be interested in are very low (Performers College requires only 88 points, for example) as they are far more interested in dance/singing/acting ability.

Interesting.