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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that most people voted to leave the EU to stop freedom of movement?

476 replies

Moomin8 · 20/02/2020 12:10

The proposed new rules the government have supposedly set out that are designed to keep out 'low skilled' workers seem to me like social cleansing. Most recently , when people moan about 'immigrants' they are always talking about people from Eastern Europe in my experience.

What really annoys me is that almost all leaver voters deny repeatedly that their vote had anything to do with the fact they wanted freedom of movement stopped.

Sorry if this has been done to death. But why won't people just be honest?

OP posts:
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7
FieldOfFlameAndHeather · 23/02/2020 11:42

He was foreign born to British parents because his father was studying abroad at the time. I don't think that counts as actually being foreign, does it? He has and always has had British nationailty, as have both his parents. The Turkish ancenstry people like to bang on about is that he had ONE grandparent who was half Turkish, a quarter Swiss and a quarter British. I don't think that qualifies him as a 'foreigner' in anyone's eyes.

I imagine the number of foreign born people living in the UK who could be similarly classified (for example those whose parents are British-born expat who then returned to Britain after a stint abroad) is very tiny compared to those who have no British born relatives before them.

LastTrainEast · 23/02/2020 11:44

frumpety it's culture not where you were physically born. As a rule of thumb someone from another country will share their culture and not yours. When immigration was slower people came here and over time integrated. Maybe they set off changes in our culture in some small way and that was fine too as long as it was gradual and not imposed.

InTheSummerhouse · 23/02/2020 12:01

MN threads usually worth reading for the range of views and the quailty of some of the posts. I think though that much of the Leave v Remain debate was fuelled by the attitude that if it was not a problem that directly affected you then it was not a problem full stop. Similarly if it was not a benefit that you saw as making life better for you - then it didn't count.
It will never matter if 99% of kids get specific health treatment/ the right school place/a nice home. If YOUR kid doesn't you are not going to vote for that situation to continue.

There were a lot of accusations of racism and laziness when plumbers and builders were protesting about losing their jobs but when it was "DH's job in Finance has been affected" it was "not the same at all". Yet the impact for both was a loss. And both the plumber and the finance specialist were screwed. And blaming each other

What we should have done is made the EU work for everybody. But it clearly didn't.

The individual/collective mindset is leaning very much towards the individual at the moment. It will shift again at some point as it always does. And then we shall see.

Binswangers · 23/02/2020 12:04

Thanks for answering Flame. I don't think you are entirely correct. Read this below. Shakespeare wrote about being tolerant of immigrants. As I'm sure you know, UK history is littered with bloodshed between Catholics and Protestants. Jewry have been present in the UK for centuries and have a history of persecution.

In your statement about differing cultures, religions and languages, do you mean the EU immigrants because there are many posts here that suggest immigration from India and China are likely to increase because of Brexit. Which may make your feelings about integration worse perhaps?

www.theconversation.com/amp/refugees-and-riots-in-shakespeares-england-56386

LastTrainEast · 23/02/2020 12:20

"immigration from India and China are likely to increase" they could increase, but Brexit doesn't require us to let it increase. The government will do what it thinks will get it re-elected. We'll see if they decide that an open door policy to two countries with a combined population of 2.6 billion will still leave them with jobs.

InTheSummerhouse · 23/02/2020 12:21

Also - to the OP - what makes you think you know how people voted let alone why they voted. People say what suits in the situation.

My work colleagues all assume I voted Remain. My clients in my volunteer role all assume I voted Leave. My family think I voted Leave because I argue with them, my neighbours assume I voted Remain because of where we live. No-one knows - I never told a soul.
On MN I get "accused" of voting both!! Grin

FieldOfFlameAndHeather · 23/02/2020 12:31

There were a lot of accusations of racism and laziness when plumbers and builders were protesting about losing their jobs but when it was "DH's job in Finance has been affected" it was "not the same at all". Yet the impact for both was a loss. And both the plumber and the finance specialist were screwed. And blaming each other

That is so, so true.

do you mean the EU immigrants because there are many posts here that suggest immigration from India and China are likely to increase because of Brexit.

No I mean immigration as a whole. And the point about British Asian immigration in particular rising due to arranged marriages and high birth rates, well that was always going to happen anyway, irrespective of leaving the EU.

Personally I'd ban it. If people in love matches can't get their prospective spouses into the UK then I don't see why people who are basically dealing in spouses as a commodity/business transaction should be allowed to. There will be money changing hands in the case of some of those arranged marriages and part of the deal will be access to the UK.

Many of those people won't even meet the financial criteria to bring a spouse from abroad but that will be fudged by their community/family clubbing together to show sufficient funds and fake employment contracts I imagine.

frumpety · 23/02/2020 12:35

FlameandHeather
So foreign born people are not foreign as long as both their parents were born in the UK ? So they are essentially entitled to citizenship at birth like Boris ?
Foreign born people who are not automatically entitled to citizenship at birth are the foreign born people you are referring to then ?
What happens if they then become citizens ? They are foreign born but no longer foreign or are they still foreign ?
Is there a sliding scale of foreigness ? Grin

Binswangers · 23/02/2020 12:36

'but that will be fudged by their community/family clubbing together to show sufficient funds and fake employment contracts I imagine'

Gosh, you seem to know a lot about this. I can't find anything anywhere to suggest this. I'm assuming you must be a British Asian and have first hand knowledge of this. How does this even work?

Binswangers · 23/02/2020 12:40

I completely agree frumpety.

Won't be long before someone comes up with a Mischling test.

frumpety · 23/02/2020 12:45

Lets hope they don't do it by DNA Binswangers otherwise most of the inhabitants of the UK are skating on thin ice Wink

InTheSummerhouse · 23/02/2020 12:50

I also struggle with the selective views that when a neighbour parks in front of "my" house or has three cars and takes up all the spaces in the road - that is Not Fair. But if a parent cannot get her child into a school because it is oversubscribed and there has been a huge increase in population due to immigration - then that is racism.

The non-racists will be careful to blame the government for not "building enough" houses/roads/schools but unhappy to pay for that via tax or subscription and will campaign against building in their nice leafy streets.

We allowed our divisions to get worse. We allowed this ridiculous virtue signalling preoccupation with being "right" to cloud our judgement. What we really need to do is find a way forward not to hope for a "serves you right" catastrophe

Binswangers · 23/02/2020 12:50

😂

frumpety · 23/02/2020 12:58

The non-racists will be careful to blame the government for not "building enough" houses/roads/schools

because it is true, that is where the responsibility lies

but unhappy to pay for that via tax or subscription and will campaign against building in their nice leafy streets.

not true in my case

To be fair I am probably not the sort of person you are aiming those remarks at though Smile

FieldOfFlameAndHeather · 23/02/2020 13:22

So foreign born people are not foreign as long as both their parents were born in the UK ? So they are essentially entitled to citizenship at birth like Boris ?

Yes. Unless their parents have actually taken up citizenship elsewhere in the meantime without opting for dual nationality, in which case, regardless of where they were born, they are no longer British and neither is their child.

Foreign born people who are not automatically entitled to citizenship at birth are the foreign born people you are referring to then?

I don't know what consitutes being automatically entitled, so I can't answer that. But I would consider anyone who is born to parents who were themselves both born in the UK should have automatic right to British citizenship unless their parents had already revoked that citizenship and taken it elsewhere.

What happens if they then become citizens ? They are foreign born but no longer foreign or are they still foreign?

I don't think it should necessarily be automatic that their children get citizenship and it should be dependent on certain factors. For example take these three families I know:

  1. The father came to the UK from an African country (not a commonwealth country) to work, applied for British citizenship, got it, then left a few years later, back to his African country. He married an African woman and they had children. He applied for British passports for his children and got them even he had left the UK himself and gone back to his country of origin. He then moved to the middle east for a job and placed his children into the British embassy affiliated school where priority is given to British passport holders. His wife and children have never been to the UK, he as only there a few years. The children plan to go to the UK for university because they are British.

  2. Family from Pakistan, similar situation. Got British citizenship while they lived and worked there, then left and went back to Pakistan where they have a family home, but they currently work in the middle east and have done for 15 years. They keep an expensive, empty property in London as an investment. All the children have gone to university in the USA and two have settled and married there, to American citizens. None of them consider the UK home, they were not born there, they left as young children, but they all have British passports.

  3. Indonesian family, father sent to work in UK on secondment from his employer at the London branch of the company.

Applied for citizenship because he wanted his daughter to go to Oxford as a home status student with student loan etc. Asked his employer to extend his work placement in the UK while this was all in process. Got the citizenship, the daughter got her home status place at Oxford, father promptly left London and went back to Indonesia for good, British passport in hand.

So no, if those children then have children themselves, they should not have automatic rights to citizenship because apart from the British passport one parent might have, there is no other real, genuine and lasting connection to the UK and neither parent was born there.

Is there a sliding scale of foreigness ? grin

Officially, no but perhaps there should be.

Binswangers · 23/02/2020 13:27

Officially, no but perhaps there should be.

Oh flame, how disappointing.

FieldOfFlameAndHeather · 23/02/2020 13:38

Don't worry Bins I am not in charge. You asked me a question, I answered it honestly, in my humble opinion, and gave examples of reasons why.

TheValeyard · 23/02/2020 13:40

'all leavers are flat capped racists'

Maybe all leavers are not flat capped racists, but all flat capped racists are leavers...

DippyAvocado · 23/02/2020 13:41

Immigration is here to stay. Global transportation, communication, finance etc has made the world a much smaller place. All we are doing is making it harder for our own children to migrate to our nearest neighbours, reducing their overall opportunities.

Mordred · 23/02/2020 13:42

"Officially, no but perhaps there should be."

Christ.

BaileysforBreakfast · 23/02/2020 13:44

What a load of nonsense

BaileysforBreakfast · 23/02/2020 13:44

^^that was in regard to Flame's post

FieldOfFlameAndHeather · 23/02/2020 13:44

Sorry it wasn't Bins that asked me the question, but anyway.

FieldOfFlameAndHeather · 23/02/2020 13:45

What a load of nonsense

Which bit?

BaileysforBreakfast · 23/02/2020 13:46

The Indonesian story is particularly colourful.

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