To think that most people voted to leave the EU to stop freedom of movement?

[Moomin8]

The proposed new rules the government have supposedly set out that are designed to keep out 'low skilled' workers seem to me like social cleansing. Most recently , when people moan about 'immigrants' they are always talking about people from Eastern Europe in my experience.

What really annoys me is that almost all leaver voters deny repeatedly that their vote had anything to do with the fact they wanted freedom of movement stopped.

Sorry if this has been done to death. But why won't people just be honest?

It’s ridiculous Aureum

brexiteer complains about queueing at airport

I think it’s terribly sad that people think a reduction in farm, hotel, catering, care and transport staff will miraculously result in full contracted employment, on high wages for all with lovely leafy social housing and same day GP appointments.
Is anyone really that naive? Are people that unaware of the facts?
Tory philosophy is each man ‘builds his own castle and protects it at all costs’. Each person is responsible for their lot in life. As Tebbit said, “No job? I grew up in the 30s with an unemployed father. He didn't riot; he got on his bike and looked for work and he kept looking 'til he found it”.
Worryingly, he also said, “If they (Muslim women) wish to cover their faces and isolate themselves from the rest of the community and so thoroughly reject our culture then I cannot imagine why they want to be here at all. Perhaps they should just push off back to their own countries.”.
Despite being a Thatcherite Tory, his policy sounds familiar to historians who studied National Socialism. Compare it to;

“Let its foreign policy be determined by the necessity to secure the space necessary to the life of our Folk. It knows no Germanising or Teutonising, as in the case of the national bourgeoisie, but only the spread of its own Folk. It will never see in the subjugated, so called Germanised, Czechs or Poles a national, let alone Folkish, strengthening, but only the racial weakening of our Folk.”

“The Folkish State, conversely, must under no conditions annex Poles with the intention of wanting to make Germans out of them some day. On the contrary, it must muster the determination either to seal off these alien racial elements, so that the blood of its own Folk will not be corrupted again, or it must without further ado remove them and hand over the vacated territory to its own National Comrades”.

There definitely soundings akin to these horrendous voices on this thread.

Turkey was threatening to join the EU at the time of the vote, so they would have flooded in to the UK,
Can we stick to facts please? Turkey was not 'threatening' to join the EU at the time of the vote. They first applied to join in 1987 and have failed woefully to meet the 'chapters' that would allow them to be accepted. Within Turkey, support for joining the EU has declined. Furthermore, the UK would have had a veto on their membership.

The whole 'The Turks are Coming!' rhetoric was started by Leave campaigners in order to stoke fears about immigration. Coupled with the efforts of the red tops over the years (a few Daily Mail examples here, but The Sun and Daily Express were equally racist) and the dreadful 'Breaking Point' poster, it was very clear that an appeal to racists was made in the lead up to the referendum. Not all Leave voters were racists, etc etc, but there's no getting away from the fact that Leave campaigners had no qualms about telling blatant lies ('the Turks are coming!) in order to appeal to a certain section of UK society.

Is anyone really that naive? Are people that unaware of the facts?
Yes and yes. You can see it on this thread.

BaileysforBreakfast. Rhetorical questions!

@PatchworkElmer prehaps construction firms could go back to actually training British people to be tradespeople? You know actually having proper apprenticeship programmes rather than relying on people from the EU? And paying proper wages too. It's shocking that you say that skilled workers are not being paid at least 25K

Rosehip10. There are plenty of apprenticeships in trades.

Under £25k?
Registered nurses with two year postgraduate experience are on under £2k.
An emergency services dispatcher is on around £20k
An ambulance technician £20k

Where is the money coming from to pay higher wages? I know - price increases which means rapid inflation and that earns low wages don’t go as far. The poorest suffer most as benefits won’t be increasing anytime soon.

@Rosehip10

There are lots of apprenticeships available- if you saw how much time, effort and money was spent trying to attract people in... fundamentally a lot of the roles are unattractive to ‘locals’ because- well, construction is often dirty, often outside, and often involves staying away from home. You can try to be flexible about some of those factors, but there are some things that won’t change due to the nature of the industry.

Also, as I say in my post- hopefully British citizens will step up. But even if thousands start training tomorrow, they won’t be fully qualified by the arbitrary cut off date.

As for the salary- as @CherryPavlova says above, the starting salaries for a lot of roles in which are skilled are also below the threshold. Which I think is another part of the problem with the government ‘plan’.

There are a lot of people on this thread who seem to think that British people are feckless and won't step up - and that may indeed be their experience.

I do think many employers are lazy about staff training and it is easier for them to employ cheap labour from overseas, than invest in training up local staff. If I thought that closing off the tap of overseas labour would change that, I could see some upside of Brexit.

However, I think employers will continue to employ cheap skilled labour from overseas, will still refuse to invest in local staff, and we won't see any changes.

In terms of the less well paid roles like care work or hospitality (it's quite offensive to say they are unskilled) I don't really know what will happen. If people are not allowed to come in and take those roles, will local people so it? As I mentioned further up the thread it would be good if there were more flexible shifts and students and those wanting part-time work could take advantage of casual work, but I am not sure it's really any kind of robust solution.

And I don't think the loss of Uber or Deliveroo would be a bad thing. Maybe without Uber there'd be some investment in public transport. Well you know pigs might fly one day!

I guess the other issue here is: ok, so we need to magic up and train British workers quickly (in all areas). How do we do this? Do colleges have capacity to increase intakes? Is government funding in place to support additional trainees? Are there even enough people who are able to ‘step up’ to cover the roles needed?

Only “ Absolutely disgusting remarks on this thread basically saying “haha now Brexiters will have to cope with a Asian/ African migrants”...so?!
Proves my point, people are only in uproar because the curb on migration will now affect white people. Vile racist comments from the so called left, shocking!”

This.

Interesting that Autumn and OnlyFools have decided that people whose comments they don't like are "from the so-called left".
You both know, I hope, that Brexit was not and is not a left/right issue? If only it had been that simple.

Are there even enough people who are able to ‘step up’ to cover the roles needed?
Well, according to Patel, there are 8 million economically inactive people in the UK and they can step up. This figure would include disabled, retired, caregivers etc. Strange that unemployment is supposedly at an all-time low (don't mention the zero hours contracts!) but there are all these people who can suddenly step up.
Also, a lot of work currently done by EU migrants would require extensive training - not all of which could be addressed by college apprenticeships.

set out that are designed to keep out 'low skilled' workers seem to me like social cleansing

And skimming the educated nurses and doctors from third world countries to staff the NHS does not smack of colonialism??

If people are not allowed to come in and take those roles, will local people so it?
Probably not for the same low salary or on the same terms with no employment benefits or long term security.

Do colleges have capacity to increase intakes?
In 2016, just before I quit teaching, colleges suffered funding cuts of 24%. Courses were cancelled and many teachers quit due to huge cuts to salaries and support services, others were made redundant and class sizes were doubled or even trebled. Adult education is in an absolute state and there’s no chance of being able to train all of these additional workers.

Its interesting that Ambulance trusts have recruitment problems and have to recruit from overseas. They offer apprenticeships and training cannot recruit easily within UK.

Its not as simple as training our own - a GP takes minimum of ten years to qualify after A levels. There is no in house solution.

Do colleges have capacity to increase intakes?

The Further Education sector has been the worst affected by education funding cuts. Many vocational training options have been decimated. I don't hold my breath that the government are going to do anything to improve the situation.

www.fenews.co.uk/fevoices/35320-further-education-funding-squeeze-set-to-continue

I am a EU immigrant - I have been in the UK since I was five. DH is Canadian - he came to the UK when he was 21. DH is a GP in London. All the other GP’s and practice nurses are Europeans. We are planning on leaving the UK. The rest of the practice are securing other jobs in Australia, Canada and Europe. The GP practice will be closing as there are no GP’s to take it over. The patients will have to join another practice with a longer wait for appointments. The UK has needed and continues to need EU immigration.

I'm a remainer but I don't support the idea that we need to have permanently open doors to immigration to get NHS staff. We only ever needed to disproportionately use non-UK staff because either the system fucked up (by not training enough British people) or because someone thought that paying slightly less to immigrants was a better option than paying what they needed to attract British workers.

Give the NHS is a socialist institution where supply-and-demand is governed by planning more than market forces, it seems plausible to me that temporary staff shortages will be caused by bad planning, but the long-term response to that should be better planning, not recruiting abroad. (Recruiting abroad is a valid temporary fix.)

It makes no sense to say that any country should be permanently dependent on importing medical staff. How would it work if all countries operated on that basis?

In any case, under the new points-based system, it will still be possible to import medical staff.

Yes under the new points system non UK medical staff could still come to the UK but those I know are now looking at places like Australia and Canada - more money and better working conditions. The same applies to many of the current nursing students - they are getting offers from abroad before they have even qualified.

Random, I agree on the planning point above.

I love that nurses can come in despite noteeting the financial target,no chance of raising nurses wages and perhaps retaining our own?

read somewhere that it's areas LEAST affected by immigration and where people are mostly white British that voted leave. I will have to hunt down the article.

Tthe areas outside London most affected by immigration voted leave. West and East Midlands, Greater Manchester, West and South Yorkshire. All these counties have historical and recent high levels of immigration.

I sometimes wonder if Londoners do not understand that high levels of immigration also happen/have happened outside the capital

read somewhere that it's areas LEAST affected by immigration and where people are mostly white British that voted leave. I will have to hunt down the article.

Here is the research done using data from the electoral commission, labour force survey and the last census. While there were outliers like Boston in Lincolnshire, in general the areas that voted leave were likely to have the least direct experience of immigration. Six of the ten highest leave-voting areas actually had fewer than 5% of residents born outside the UK.