To set family boundaries here?

[MtnBikeChick]

This is gonna be long 😭....Wise MNs, advice on minefield family situation. I find it deeply difficult to be around my dad and brother at the same time. My brother has all sorts of mental issues - depression, anxiety, personality disorder, and is definitely on the spectrum (though his diagnosis is hazy). He is extremely obese and eats all the time- huge amounts of food. He is irritable and snappy and shouty - mainly at my dad. My dad responds and they often bicker and snap. My brother finds my mum irritating and tells her off for silly things. My dad does similar to my mum. My mum is a lovely, calm, kind individual. My dad and my brother have always been like this but since becoming a parent I have found it increasingly hard to deal with and be around. I HATE it. Christmas was awful and I vowed never to do it again. My brother has started to snap at my two little boys too, as kids can obviously be irritating occasionally, but they don’t mean it...and I don’t want them around it. I don’t want them seeing my brother treat my parents that way. All in all it’s a horrible toxic dynamic but no one has ever dealt with it. Now my dad has said he wants us all to go away to some farm in the middle of nowhere (where he grew up) - his treat - and I don’t want to go. I can’t make an excuse as he’s finding a week we can all do. The farm isn’t even very nice. It’s pretty crappy self catering in the middle of fields. The dog will like it. I can’t put myself through this and I don’t think there is any benefit to it for anyone. My dad never ever thinks he is in the wrong so if I am honest about this he will like get angry, then sulk. My mum would probably suggest doing it to keep the peace but I am kind of done with that now. I have my own mental health and my own kids to think about. I hate being around them together. My dad alone isn’t too bad but my brother alone or with my parents is awful. The added piece is my sister’s husband was suddenly killed in a road crash in 2018 and I think the grief and trauma of that has made family get togethers even harder. My dad has no idea I feel like this and it will hurt him if I say we won’t go but I really think I need to address this situation- not sure how though. I think my mum will also be cross with my for causing what she perceives to be a "split" but she has already said this proposed week will be "very stressful" - who goes on a holiday if 6 months ahead of time they know it will be stressful?!! So sorry for the length!

It is natural and normal to seek to redefine your relationship with parents/slings once you have a family yourself. Your priority shifts from your 'birth family' to your own family. It's perfectly ok for you to struggle with the idea of needing to prioritise you/your children above your parents, but it is still a necessary adjustment you will have to make.

So regarding the holiday itself, it's ok to just say "I'm sorry but I don't want us to come, it will be too stressful for me". Just be brave, say it and exit as soon as possible. The bigger deal will be dealing with the fall out and longer term through proper discussion as to why.

You have to explain what you said in your op. Such negativity will be horrible for your children so make them your focus/excuse.

"The constant snappiness is not good for my children and make spending time with you stressful for us. I love you but I love my children more and this is important. We don't like being around Dad and Brother at the same time for this reason"

I would tell them why. It’s all great saying no, but unless your truly honest about things and how it’s effecting you and your children things won’t change. And if they get in a sulk over it, then so be it but least they’ll know the truth.

🙏 this all makes sense

Tell the truth and how it affects you. If they make excuses, and they may, stick to your guns and repeat your feelings. Your feelings matter. They probably won't like it but it isn't your fault.

As pp's said be honest. Your Dad & Brother have a toxic dynamic, that is their default. They won't see how it affects others unless it's pointed out as its been their pattern since forever probably (the template gets set in childhood). But, as its their default, they won't probably be self aware or have any logical insight, so be prepared for denial & tantrums.

I'd probably focus on the situation between your bro and dc as it's easier to define. Maybe say "bro clearly finds the dc irritating, and I don't want him to snap at them, so I think it's better if we don't join you."

I’d say all of the above suggestions from previous posters.
Can you not ask your mum to come somewhere alone with you? Seems like she deserves a break from the arsehole men in her life.

@CSIblonde this exactly.

To update, I told them that it was not going to work for us as a family holiday because I do not want to be around my brother due to the way he speaks to our parents (particularly our mum) and that it is starting to affect my own children and I don't want them around that level of toxicity. Told my parents we would love to do it just with them sometime. Anyway my dad is hurt and offended (he has a tendency to pout) and my mum isn't responding to my
Calls or texts. She spends most of her time with my complaining about my dad but she is loyal and she also has this attitude that my brother is her son and she has to tolerate his behaviour. So basically, they think I am wrong and that I should just suck it up and spend a stressful week around toxic arguing and shouting just because my dad would be offended otherwise. Whatever! I actually feel quite liberated.

Good for you.
This break from tradition might well make them think, particularly your mother.
Stay strong and regret nothing.
You have done the right thing for you and especially your children.
Good luck.

Remind her she is obviously welcome to do what's best for her dc - ie stand by db - but as a dm now you are doing the same and won't be going..
Let her huff and df puff...

You mum is a “lovely calm kind individual”

And also exceptionally weak, and wants to drag you down with her.

If you don’t extract yourself from this situation for your own sake, do it for your children. Not a cat’s chance would I expose my two to this kind of negative environment

Good On you

Good for you! You can't change them but you don't have to allow them to bring their dysfunctionality into your life. Invite your mum out on her own occasionally; sounds like she could do with a break - but if she says no, there's nothing more you can do. I'd cut the brother loose completely.

Good for you. Think of yourself and the kids. Dont give in.

Well done! There’s a not completely dissimilar dynamic between my in laws and I’ve told my DH that I won’t be having our DC around it as it’s so volatile and makes me feel stressed so what it does to them is even worse.

Well done! You have 100% done the right thing. I hope you enjoy your week of freedom!

Well done you. Yes they will be cross because you've broken the rules and pointed put the elephant in the room but you have to think of yourselves and your children.

My parents were very upset when I said I was no longer going to have my abusive brother around myself or my kids. There were quite a few attempts at getting me to change my mind "to make things easier" (and still are) but I am so much happier and, really, Inwas wrong to let it go on as long as it did.

Well done!

You did a good job explaining yourself, that took courage. Unsurprisingly they've chucked their toys out. The longer they will quietly the more peace is sent your way.
Just worry when the texts start.
Compose a text that isn't critical but is clear. Something like
"I'm sorry you're upset but I've decided we c won't be coming as I'd find it too stressful."

Over the last couple of weeks my dad has basically ignored me but I managed to speak to him yesterday. He is saying that what I did was the most hurtful thing anyone has ever done to him and that I am driving a wedge in the family. I feel like he’s basically bullying me for being honest. I am not responsible for his response to this! I just tried to be honest. Grrrrr

Well done for prioritising your and your “nuclear” family’s needs and wishes. Continue to do that.

Your parents are being unfair on you. You can’t control their reactions, so would maintain your “boundaries” and perhaps use some assertiveness techniques.

What is your parents’ plan for the time when your parents can no longer financially support and care for your brother?

Also suggest the Stately Homes threads for book tips and clever posters!

So he is trying to project the blame onto you instead of trying to sort the real issue- your brothers behaviour. Why should you and your dc put up with that to suit him . Holidays should be looked forward to not dreaded.

Good move OP. Proud of you!