To think HS2 won't benefit the North and should be scrapped in favour of HS3?

[Dividednation]

Using AIBU for the voting as I'm interested in people's actual views on this.

I live in London, and I''m interested in what people who live "in the North" (very broad generalisation there) think about HS2. Yes I do know actual Northerners - show horror even though I'm a metropolitan southerner type - but not enough to get a real sense of the general consensus about this issue among Northern communities, and I'm struggling to get a real sense from the media reporting. HS2 supporters would have us believe that it will filter wealth from London up north, but I am inclined to think this is a daft scheme and all it will do is bring more people and wealth down to London. (This is notwithstanding the environmental argument against HS2 which seems compelling. I do support train investment in general for less reliance on cars, but the HS2 route destroys green belt and ancient protected woodland so it's defeated it's object there).

Surely the money would be better spent on HS3 / Northern powerhouse rail / whatever you want to call it - a high speed rail link between the main northern cities creating a "hub". The research I've read suggests this would reinvigorate the economy in the north of England far more effectively, by creating a hub city ("northern powerhouse") whereby people could work, commute and travel quickly and efficiently between say Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield and the wealth that would generate would be more impactful on the North both economically and culturally.

So, if you live in the North, AIBU to say HS2 should be scrapped?

YANBU - HS2 will not help the North should be scrapped in favour of HS3
YABU - HS2 will be good for the North and should go ahead

I live in the Midlands and would rather see investment in strengthening links between northern cities, rather than just making the journey from London to Birmingham 20 minutes faster.

Would definitely rather strengthen links between cities in the North. Had to travel from Leeds to Manchester this week by train -dangerously overcrowded and delayed.

Definitely scrap HS2. The money would be far better spent elsewhere. HS3 now, yes keep that - people actually want that one.

Cynic that I am, I suspect that there are too many fingers in too many lucrative corporate tills for them to cancel it now.

If Obama could cancel the entire Space Shuttle Programme within hours of getting into power and with the stroke of a pen, why oh why can't we get HS2 cancelled?

100% cancel HS2 and give us HS3

I’m in Scotland so no interest at all in hs2. Presumably though hs3 would allow us to link faster and better across the north from day york or Leeds which we can get to by train quite easily.

Hs3 does sound a lot better from what you’ve said. I hadn’t even heard of that being proposed instead. I live near the hs2 route (south) and it doesn’t have support around here because of all the upheaval and cost it’s causing. I don’t class Birmingham as the north anyway so it can’t be said that hs2 will benefit the north that much

Def scrap hs2.

It’s a white elephant.

The highest paid public servant in the U.K. is the hs2 boss!! Crazy!

I live in the Midlands (so not north!) And can't see the benefit in only a 20min change of journey time, to a city that's not really northern anyway.

It feels like it's just going to suit wealthy people living in say, bicester, with quicker transport into london but no one else really.

Yep, I’m in Manchester and have never heard a single person here say anything in support of HS2. All that cost and disruption to shave about twelve minutes off the journey. The existing run from here to London is pretty good anyway, takes almost exactly two hours and there’s one about every 20 minutes. It it achieves anything, it will be to encourage more Londoners to move up here and commute back to London, so further fucking up our housing market with their South East-inflated spending power.

Whereas we desperately need improved links to the other Northern cities. If you factor in getting to the city centre first, it can take nearly as long to get to Leeds as London. And the genuine ability to commute between Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield and all the towns in between would open up so many opportunities for so many people.

They are both too southern. And, No, I dont live in Scotland.
What about Newcastle? Is the NE forgotten again?

Better northern links please. Far more useful to the local economy and the quality of life up here. Getting to London faster is all very well but we still need to get to Leeds to get on the train and that seems to be getting harder and harder every year.

In South Yorkshire you can get to London in 1 hour 45 min's from doncaster currently what's need to be there quicker.

It feels like it's just going to suit wealthy people living in say, bicester, with quicker transport into london but no one else really.

How will it be quicker for people in Bicester? It’s not going to stop between brim and London

I live in London now but grew up in the north.

I think hs2 is a stupid idea and have never felt the need to get to Birmingham quicker (it’s not a particular long journey now!). When I lived on one side of “the north” and went to university across the penines I found travel across really difficult and think that should be the priority for train investment! Opening up some of the stations closed by beaching in the north to improve transport around the area would also be great (was mentioned this week) being able to go to from Blyth to Newcastle for example but again not about hs2.

I agree that HS2 won’t bring much benefit to the North (I live in Manchester), but unfortunately if it is cancelled the money won’t be used to improve the dreadful trains in the North, it isn’t an either/or choice.

So I don’t think it matters whether it goes ahead or not - the North won’t get the transport investment it needs either way.

HS2 is nonsense. There needs to be better cross country connections particularly in the north of England. I also live in a part of the Midlands that has just been cut off from connections up to further north in the Midlands which is completely stupid. It's a very blinkered view that the whole population is only interested in travel to and from London; no wonder the economy is tanking in large parts of the country.

So a unanimous verdict. Wonder how the Northern Tory voters will feel when HS2 is given the go ahead by Boris.

Yep, I'm close to where the hs2 route will run in the Midlands. It's going to cost a fortune, cause unbelievable disruption, and destroy vast swathes of countryside. But hey, it means that if I drove to a brand new station (completely isolated from the main routes and carefully designed to be only accessible by car from one major road) I'd get to London 10 mins quicker than I can by walking to my local station.

Definitely scrap it. All its going to do is filter more money down to London and potentially put up our housing and living costs if people decide it makes commuting from here feasible.

Fuck them, I don't care how they feel.

100% agree, we desperately need investment in the North.

I am near Manchester and broadly agree with you. I'm not totally against it but It's an enormous sum of money and there are serious environmental concerns. The train connections around the north are awful- the only decent reliable line is the current one to London. That is probably the only one which is not in dire need of upgrading!
Spend the money on the northern regional network, and also on other regions of the Uk and the main cross country rail line which is awful.

I can't see a single fast extremely expensive line to London helping us very much at all.

I think they will shrug, given that it's the nation as a whole paying for it.
It's like somebody giving you an expensive present, you've told them you don't want it and it's no use to you but if they're determined to give it to you it's no skin off your nose.
As someone else on the thread has pointed out, it's not like if they cancel HS2 they will guarantee to spend the money on other northern transport projects instead.

Ps from where I am London is very easily day trippable no real benefit to be able to get there in 1h30 rather than 1h55

I live in Yorkshire - I'm a southerner by birth but have lived up north for the last 20 years.

I'd far rather see investment in local rail services. The recent decision to nationalise Northern Rail has been blamed on Arriva's poor handling of the franchise, but it's not entirely their fault as the infrastructure (Network Rail's responsibility) meant they had very poor materials to work with.

It will be years before HS2 even reaches the true north as the initial network will only go as far as the midlands. And the emphasis is on reducing journey times from the north into London - that's of limited use, especially as the East Coast mainline (GNER) already provides a relatively decent service into London. I'm not sure what they envisage the benefits being.

What we need is -

• general improvements to tracks and signalling in the north
• sort out the Ordsall Chord to stop Manchester being a bottleneck
• replace the ancient rolling stock with up to date and longer trains
• improve East/West links in the North
• add stations in commuter towns that don't have them (reverse Beeching).
• Improve west coast links to Scotland - again, another bottleneck

As always, there was little to no consultation with the people who actually use these services - just a decision made in Westminster's London-centric bubble.

It's things like this that make me think people who push for Yorkshire's devolution have a point.

Hs2 doesn’t go proper north.