To think there is nothing wrong with saying to a child that doing something is naughty?

[karencantobe]

And anyone I know that does ban the use of the word naughty, just uses another word instead anyway.

@SentimentalKiller Background and mental health has a massive impact on whether an adult commits a crime. But somewhere there is a choice. So why did my DB commit crimes and I didn't? We both had the same family with the same issues and both grew up in a rough neighbourhood. How people react to shitty circumstances is dependent also on their personalities. People are not robots that react predictably to certain inputs, with certain outputs.

For me there are two problems with 'naughty'.

The first is the one jacques cites. It isn't descriptive, it doesn't help children understand what about the behaviour is a problem and hence doesn't allow them to extend the rule from the specific thing they have done.

The second is that it implies the child has done something wrong on purpose while in control of their emotions. For toddlers this is usually incorrect. Most kids are just randomly doing stuff and sometimes this crosses lines they aren't aware of, or aren't sufficiently developed to understand.

eg. Yes, do explore the toys with the pokey holes and places to slot things in - aren't you clever? NONONONO don't stick your finger in the socket you naughty CHILD.

Some simply can't control anger and upset and lash out at others. None of this behvaiour is deliberate, so naughty is just the wrong word for it.

I think it is also worth considering that people have expectations of how children should or shouldn’t behave which are not appropriate for the developmental age of the child. For example, children at 2/3 years of age have no impulse control. They will do things which are labelled as naughty, like ignore requests or hit or throw things, but these are not naughty. They are just typical and normal behaviours for that age.

karen well just guessing from your name, you were socialised as a girl and likely heavily steered towards caring for others and empathizing. Your DB may well have been told once to often that big boys don't cry.

There are very obvious societal reasons why the male crime rate is higher than the female.

Its not excusing individuals to point out that there is at least some responsibility that lies outside of individual choices.

By the time they are 3, most kids do have impulse control most of the time.
I did not talk about a certain age when saying naughty. So I don't know why some people are only talking about toddlers.

@M3lon No my DB was not told boys don't cry. And he has always been able to cry more easily than me. Yes girls and boys are socialised differently. But the truth is my DB both as a child and adult was always far less bothered about authority than I am.
I am just saying why people commit crime is a complex range of factors. I think too often people want to put it down to 1 or 2 simple causes.
And we all know that even as tiny babies people do have their own personalities.

Our brains develop according to our environment. Most of what we call personality isn't innate and if you had been taken at birth and stuck in a Romanian orphanage for 2 years you wouldn't be the person you are now
I'm not saying choice is not involved but we need to understand society's problems are not just down to the individual and change the way we support children and families

Plus you only have you read the Stately Homes threads toy see that within the same family children can be tested completely differently, and that alone causes huge behavioral issues...

Oh, and a 2 year old who is deeply unpleasant can still be reacting to outside problems. I suppose they could just be bad, but they could have an abusive parent, or undiagnosed disability... and my money would be on either of those being far more likely than being born bad.

Sorry... children can be TREATED completely differently...

I understand that children can be treated differently in the same family. But we disagree if you are saying that you don't think children have their own personalities and are just born as a blank slate.

If I had a child in nursery, I know I'd want someone like @M3lon to look after them and certainly not someone @lowlandLucky.

Yanbu but there is a difference between 'that's naughty' (indicates the behaviour) and 'you're naughty' (indicates the child).
One says the behaviour is unacceptable and the other says the child is. It's a subtle but powerful difference.

This. 100%. Without wanting to sound snowflakey I still carry scars from being labelled a naughty, bad, nasty person etc as a child, rather than being told my behaviour was these things, not me as a whole. Children are too young to make that distinction, the parent needs to make it for them.

*someone like

If your not allowed to use naughty, you end up with bad, unpleasant, rude, painful etc

Painful, and to some extent, rude, are fine. Naughty, bad etc aren't at all helpful to children. What they mean is that the child is behaving inconveniently for the adults. It's better to address the actual behaviour and not just use a generic term that could mean anything. Children don't interpret words the same as adults, they are very literal.

By the time they are 3, most kids do have impulse control most of the time.

No they do not. Children start developing impulse control from about 3.5-4 yrs. it's a learning process like anything else.

Unrealistic expectations of our children are why people think they have naughty toddlers

@nokidshere I am talking from experience here when I talk about impulse control. So yes my DC at 3 could sit through a church service every week. He could control his impulses to run around the church. If he was very angry or upset, he could not control how he reacted.
Perhaps we are talking about different things when we are talking about impulse control, but most 3-year olds do not give in to every impulse if they have been taught not to.

The second is that it implies the child has done something wrong on purpose while in control of their emotions. For toddlers this is usually incorrect. Most kids are just randomly doing stuff and sometimes this crosses lines they aren't aware of, or aren't sufficiently developed to understand.

My 3 year old knows full well where she is and isn’t allowed to draw. Yes, she drew in the carpet on impulse, but it was naughty.

I said in my very first post - the word isn't descriptive enough for me. I prefer to use words that make it clear why the behaviour is wrong.

I do both. “That was naughty because now it won’t come off and I have to take your pens away.”

I want her to understand that I am not happy with her.

As a behaviour descriptor it's ok but ineffective as others have said. As a label for the child, it's really demotivating.

It takes a much bigger jump for a child who believes themselves to be naughty to decide to turn it around, than one that believes they are essentially good and have the potential to make good choices.

I still find positive motivation works much better now! Ie if someone says I did a good job at something I feel really motivated to repeat and keep improving it. If I receive a negative judgement it's pretty easy to feel like what's the point?

That's not to say we shouldn't teach children what appropriate and inappropriate is - it's critically important. But the best way is to explain the problem with the behaviour and not label the child themselves.

@JacquesHammer You're missing my point. I'm saying alternatives to naughty. So saying 'it hurts' you're labelling the child as someone who enjoys hurting people. Destroying toys, your just saying destructive but using several simpler words, just the same.

I'm not for or against the word naughty (I actually don't use it but do as you've outlined), I just can't see the point of getting tied up with simple words.

If a child repeatedly broke toys on purpose, I would eventually become so exasperated I would say it was naughty behaviour, but I would want to know why they are being destructive. Perhaps a girl who identifies as a boy is ripping the heads of Barbie for a good reason 😂

You're missing my point. I'm saying alternatives to naughty. So saying 'it hurts' you're labelling the child as someone who enjoys hurting people. Destroying toys, your just saying destructive but using several simpler words, just the same

I'm making a different point. Naughty has no use as a descriptor. I have absolutely no issue with labelling behaviour, however it is important to make it clear why that behaviour is wrong.

Saying "we don't hit people, hitting hurts" isn't labelling the child as someone who enjoys hitting people .

I think @BertieBotts and @M3lon have it right.

I occasionally use the word myself but try to avoid it. It’s framing behaviour as about obedience.

Where possible I try to frame behaviour as about care and consideration: caring for others, caring for things/the environment, caring for yourself/considering impacts. The principle covers most situations from not sharing toys through to running into the road.

‘Kind’ is definitely my most over used word - even if it’s me losing my cool screeching “stop that it’s not kind!” at full volume.

@yellowallpaper telling a child that hitting hurts isn't labelling them as someone that likes causing pain.

If you were to say "you are a bully" that is labelling the child, or "you are cruel", or "you are naughty" or "you are mean" these are all labelling the child as something. Then that risks the child thinking this sort of behaviour is inevitable from them because after all, they are mean, and mean people hurt people.

But saying to a child that we shouldn't hit because hitting hurts implies they are able to make a good choice not to hit and explains why the behaviour isn't acceptable.

There's a complete difference!

I am talking from experience here when I talk about impulse control. So yes my DC at 3 could sit through a church service every week. He could control his impulses to run around the church. If he was very angry or upset, he could not control how he reacted.
Perhaps we are talking about different things when we are talking about impulse control, but most 3-year olds do not give in to every impulse if they have been taught not to

And I'm talking from experience of working professionally with children in various places for 40+ years, and having my own.

3yr olds are learning about impulse control, they do not have it

Disagree all you like but you are wrong
Babies may have personality traits but the human brain is underdeveloped at birth. It develops according to its environment and the first experiences have the greatest impact. Lack of stimulation will lead to a brain that doesn't develop, like in the orphanages. A child that is now shown love, nurture or empathy will lack the ability to develop those traits
There is plenty of research on this